Affirmative Action, racism and indigenous people. It's like a kinderegg of thorny issues.

[misscam]

Affirmative Action sure is a touchy subject in the US, I see.

I have no idea where I stand on the issue, as I don't live there, don't really have anything much to compare it with in Norway (we got our own various issues, of course) and everything I've read on the issue seems so polarised I get additional confusion. Do I doubt racism is alive and disgustingly well in the US - or the world at large for that matter? Fuck no. Do I have any brilliant ideas for combating this? Fuck no.

It is in many ways a thorny issue. It happens that those who mean well and try just become patronizing and even part of the problem. And there's so much history, so much baggage, you sort of wonder where to even start.

I remember the most heartbreaking thing about living in Australia was the situation of the Aborigines. Here we're talking a truly unique people, quite probably the longest maintained culture we know of, a people we have not the foggiest how even got there. Then the whites came and it's been estimated 90% - 90! - were killed by disease, violence or simply the loss of land. Of the survivors, thousands of children were taken from their families and raised as 'white', effectively trapping them as neither nor. They didn't even get counted as 'people' until 1967. Today, the current government still refuses to apologise for much of this. Nothing better illustrates the situation of the Aborigines in Australia than this - the life expectency is 20 years lower than the rest of the country. Mortality rate for infants? Four times higher. Finishing primary school? 39% of the population. (75% for the country at large.) It's like they're stuck in another world than the rest. And they really are. It's like it's an invisble line - I felt it while I was there, and I helped out some at a local indigenous radio station and they remarked upon it too.

There have been well-meant attempts to rectify this. They don't seem to work. I don't think there is any one brilliant way to solve it. Quite a lot of people seem to think there is nothing to be done, that it's simply too complicated.

What the hell do you do? I don't know. But can it be afforded to do nothing? Can genocide by committed by neglect and simple 'well, it's not directly my fault...'? I think so. You don't need to use racial slurs to be a part of racism in action. You can just close your eyes too. And that is so, so easy.

I do know this - we have an indigenous people in Northern Norway known as the Sami. (Or Saami, depending on your spelling.) The Norwegian state did some crapticular things to them, including taking a good try at squashing Sami culture alltogether. Did I do that? No. Sanity was regained before I was born. Was it my fault? No. I wasn't around to do anything. Does this mean I should wash my hands of everything? Fuck no. I carry the genes of my forefathers. I was born a child of Norway. I hold a Norwegian citizenship. That gives me certain rights. That sure as fuck gives me certain responsibilities too. A wrong was done. It's not going to correct itself just because the guilty people are now gone.

So we try to fix it now. I like to think in Norway we've done okay now. Undoubtedly, we can do better. But that's how you learn.

Which brings me back to Affirmative Action. I don't know if it works. I don't know if it's good. I just know doing nothing - that's just not an option anyone should ever be proud of. (Says the bleeding heart social democrat, which undoubtedly makes some people sneer.)

[Also, when the hell was America ever taken over by liberals? All I'm seeing is years and years of conservative, slightly-less-conservative, vaguely-centre-if-you-tilt-your-head-and-squint and conservative-like-whoa-wheee. Liberals? Really? When? (Okay, maybe FDR, I grant you. Maybe.)]

I really, really don't know. Possibly I should not think of stuff like this late at night and make confused rambles.

Yeah.

So here's the wank that broke people's brains and Rush Limbaugh being hateful for less confused thoughts.

Comments

[keskt.livejournal.com]

Well, liberal is a relative term. It's really fairly meaningless without a context, so "liberal" in Norway would be different from the US, and liberal in the US would be different than Saudi Arabia.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Certainly - by Norwegian standards, the entire US is so far to the right we have to squint to see - by US standards, Norway is so far to the left you can only see the dust of us.

But considering what I heard defined as liberal in the US when I was there, I'm still not seeing this great liberal take-over that gets proclaimed.

[jocelyncs.livejournal.com]

Affirmative Action is indeed a very charged issue in the US, and people tend to mischaracterize it. The trouble is that certain methods are far more fair and desirable than others, and other methods are like putting a bandaid on a broken arm.

Rush Limbaugh won Keith Olberman's "Worse Person In The World" award for that little stunt. Nothing the bastard does surprises me anymore.

Actually, there are many liberals in the US, but like Affirmative Action, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are mischaracterized frequently. "Liberal" and "terrorist" are both catchwords of the Bush administration used to instill fear in the public.

"The terrorists are coming to blow us all up!"
"The liberals are coming to push their unGodly agenda onto us!"

Same sleazy lie, same freaky message, same result--more power.

Election Day is coming up over here and I don't even dare hope we'll get Dubya's party out of Congress. I truly believe they will rig the election or stage another terrorist attack themselves to prevent any loss of power.

[keskt.livejournal.com]

Oh, there isn't one. Probably whoever said that was a bitter right winger. The country is incredibly divided politically and people get quite testy about the other "side." The Democrats also also projected to take back the House in the midterm elections at the beginning of next month, so that is probably upsetting. *shrugs* I don't know any conservatives personally, so I can't say.

[megpie71.livejournal.com]

I'd agree with you on Affirmative Action. I also agree that the whole "Aboriginal Problem" is a complicated mess, and further posit that part of the complication is that White Australia is still not acknowledging that Aboriginal Australians are people, and therefore that not all of them will want or need the same things. Not all Aboriginals are urban - although a significant percentage are. Not all Aboriginal people want to return to tribal ways - although a percentage do. Not all Aboriginal people want to be westernised - although again, a percentage of them do. Treating the whole Aboriginal ethnicity as though it's a single homogenous group (which it never was - which part of "tribal" is the tricky bit?) and as though all people who are Aboriginal want the same things is never going to work.

Another component of the problem is that there is *still* the cumulative effect of thousands of years worth of culture shock to be absorbed by both the Aboriginal cultures, and by the Anglo-Celtic culture. We *still* don't have many common frames of reference, even after two hundred years, and we're starting to realise that possibly we never will. This doesn't mean that nothing should be done, but it does mean that Westernised culture will need people who are willing to act in the role of interpreters - speakers for and to the more traditional groups - for a long time to come. The tricky part is finding these people, because in order to interact successfully in Western culture, an Aboriginal person effectively has to give up a lot of their traditional culture, and place value on a number of things which their traditional culture either doesn't have (such as formal schooling) or doesn't value (such as academic success). Having done all of that, they then have to return to their traditional lifestyle with all this knowledge, knowing it won't be valued by the people around them, and knowing that their traditional knowledge isn't valued by the Western culture. At this point, the biggest question becomes "why bother".

The above is only part of the problem, of course.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

Did you see Olbermann's commentary last night? Brilliant. He used the dictionary definition of "terrorism" and ran the Republican Party's latest THE TERRORISTS WILL KILL YOU IF YOU VOTE DEMOCRAT OH GOD SHIT YOURSELF HIDE HIDE HIDE DEATH EXPLOSIONS BIG SCARY BEARDS AND TURBANS!!11!!! ad, Bin Laden stock footage and all--then he talked about how the Republicans are deliberately terrorizing the public for political gain, and if that's not terrorism, what is?

Nothing us "liberals" haven't been saying for years, but it was so gratifying to actually hear it on TV, and so eloquently. I love that man!

[leila82.livejournal.com]

The problem, as I see it, with affirmative action is that it doesn't go far enough. In fact, it doesn't really accomplish much, if anything at all, but it gives people the impression that they're doing something and assuages their consciences. Like, for example, affirmative action as is used in college acceptances - admitting a certain percentage of Hispanics or African Americans to a school to make a quota is fine, but is it really helping in the long run? Do those students go on to get better educations, get better degrees, or more degrees, get better, higher paying jobs?

We really need to start at the root - the inherent racism in housing and the public school system - and until that gets fixed, I don't think affirmative action is going to be much help. Kind of like putting a band-aid on bullet-wound.

[lotus79.livejournal.com]

a people we have not the foggiest how even got there

I think I was taught in primary school that they came in boats from (probably) the Pacific Islands 40,000 years ago. Which is the basis of the (absolutely ridiculous!) argument that 'Aboriginal people are immigrants too, so it isn't thier land either.' I think 40,000 beats 200, don't you?

Also, I was taught 'peaceful settlement' in primary school, which is/was a total load of bullshit, so I take it all with a grain of salt.

Some people still refer to them as "aborigines" with a small a, which is offensive (since it is not their cultural name, but instead a generic term for indigenous people of any land). And all the time I hear the horrible epithets of "Boong" and "Coon", which are just as bad as the N word in America, but far more "socially acceptable". Aborigine with a capital A is better, but it should be Aboriginal people preferably. Though if you know the tribal name, it is ideal to use that. So the indigenous people of south western WA are Nyoongar, up near Broome, they are Yamatji (I think) and in NSW they are Koori.

As for liberals taking over... well you know our bloody conservative party call themselves the Liberal party. I want to come and live in Norway.

[wintergreen126.livejournal.com]

affirmative action is (and here i channel 14 year old girls everywhere) a way touchy subject here. there was a lot of brouhaha over a case not too long ago about the university of michigan law school using race as admissions criteria. it was ultimately upheld by the supreme court, though part of the matter was found to be unconstitutional.

i don't (or at least i'd like to) think that it's not as prevalent as it once was. however, i remember when i was applying to colleges a few years back, my dad told me (and i don't mean to offend anyone) that if i changed my name to esmerelda martinez or something like that, i could get in almost anywhere (and i was applying to fairly competitive schools) without a problem. i hate to say it, but he was probably right. colleges and universities usually defend themselves by saying it's about diversity.

personally, i'm not a big fan of affirmative action because it's easy to end up with reverse discrimination: you don't get in BECAUSE your white or asian. i'm a fan of getting in on your own merits. it's one thing to take certain factors into consideration, but beyond that...

as for indigenous people, america has done it's fair share of being wholly unpleasant to them. so many native americans now live on reservations because of us. awful.

and no. liberals have yet to take over america. middle of the road liberals, ie bill clinton, have been popular. but other than that conservatives have had a fairly firm grip.

nice to know there's another fellow bleeding heart liberal out there. it's gets lonely sometimes among all those conservatives.

and i've gone on for far too long. sorry!!! but thanks for sharing your thoughts. have a good day (i think it's early morning over there) :o)

[dalinae.livejournal.com]

That sure as fuck gives me certain responsibilities too. A wrong was done. It's not going to correct itself just because the guilty people are now gone.

But see, therein lies the problem in the US as well. Sadly, too many people are confusing the responsibility (1) of working to fix things with responsibility (2) for the current situation, AKA "white man's guilt" (not to be confused with the insipid "white man's burden"). And while the debate gets bogged down in talks or "privilege" and "quotas", education funds are being drained to finance Bush's big toy Risk game.

[melliyna.livejournal.com]

Like lotus79 in primary school the whole Aboriginal question was basically glossed over - I only knew about it because I bothered to learn about it. I agree that it's an incredibly complicated issue but we have to do something.

Also my state of Tasmania has a particularly bad history regarding our treatment of Aborigines although I'm very glad there are steps being taken to address that, at least a little (the Premier apologised and such). I think this is one of the many issues that really depress me about the Howard government.

[belegcuthalion.livejournal.com]

That was not confused at all. And I think that the iron refusal of more than one australian government is part (if not the root) of the problem. You can't change the mind of people if you don't acknowledge in public that there has indeed been great harm done, if you close your eyes before the fact that there has indeed been a shocking (even if silent) genocide. It is not only a christian principle that people can't turn around and start on a better way without acknowledging their faults and asking for forgiveness. Every psychologist can tell you the same... simply because it's true.

I carry the genes of my forefathers. I was born a child of Norway. I hold a Norwegian citizenship. That gives me certain rights. That sure as fuck gives me certain responsibilities too. A wrong was done. It's not going to correct itself just because the guilty people are now gone.

... which is why it is so difficult for so many german people to nurture a healthy patriotism; for there are moments when you can taste the foul ashes of Auschwitz like the essence of an ancient shame in your mouth, even if none of your forefathers has ever been there.

[sarie-gamgee.livejournal.com]

I need to give this further thought, but it was a very intreresting read. What you wrote about the Saami made me think about what still happens with the gypsies in Spain. There's been something like Affirmative Action ever since the early days of Spanish democracy (late 70s - early 80s), but I think it hasn't worked as people expected. They have lower life expectancy, and very few of them ever go to university (many of them never get their diplomas in secondary education).

I agree with leila82, anyway. Housing, public school system and the like are still racist, and I don't think we'll change much until that gets fixed.

[childofares.livejournal.com]

Well. The racism problem here gets kinda icky. I can only speak for myself but I've had people tell me that I OWE them because generations ago they had an ancester who was a slave/Native American/Squid pod person. To them I say a big "screw you"

I think everyone should be afforded the same rights. You don't get more because of the past though. When I apply places I put down my Spanish heritage because it DOES give me an advantage. (I'm half Spanish)

As far as the liberal and conservative thing..I guess it depends on who you ask. They are all nuts IMO. I'm probably pretty conservative as opposed to a lot of people. The problem is defining conservative as Republican and liberal as Democrat. You can have conservative veiws and be either as long as you don't listen to the far sides. I always understood Liberal and Conservative to be just our views and not any affiliation. The problem is everyone is foaming at the mouth to be right and win that it's become very nasty. I've been de-friended for being a Republican. I've been called a stupid sheep for being patriotic and supporting the military. I've been spit on during a Veterans day parade as a retired vet. Does it bother me to be judged for something like that? Sure it does! But I don't really put that much thought into it. I am what my life has made me and I'm happy with that. If they feel the same more power to them yanno?

=gets off soapbox*

[spudzilla.livejournal.com]

I think there are two very big misconceptions that a lot of Americans have that are contributing to a lot of the anger you see when issues like this come up.

The first is the American Dream. Which is essentially that anyone, if they just try hard enough, can be successful (aka rich). And if you're poor, or uneducated, or any number of things that don't fit into the popular definition of success, it's due to a personal failing, and not a social failing.

The second is the notion that since there are less glaringly blatent forms of discrimination and segregation than there used to be, that everyone is treated equally, and everyone should be over All That by now. And that everyone should now be equally sucessful and rich.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I've noticed this polarization of US politics. It seems very, very hostile, like all the anger of what goes wrong gets directed at the other side, even when the other side hasn't been in charge.

Most peculiar.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Oh, I know the US has liberals. I've just never seen what I would call liberal "take-over". Even with Democratic president, you've still had majority of Republicans in the Congress. Or majority of conservative judges on the bench. Or conservative influences in the Democratic party itself. Etc etc.

And in Norway, liberal is to the right in politics. Yay for confusion.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah - it is the same as with native Americans, basically. People there treated them as one people - which they're really not. One race, maybe. I mean, I am the same race as Germans. I wouldn't call them my people still. Even the Swedes we just call a brother people.

I think a lot of people just don't understand. Might even mean well, might even hold no malice, but you if you don't understand a problem, attempts to fix it will often create more.

I met some of these interpreters when I did a story on Sorry Day. Living between two worlds... There is a price no one should have to pay. And yet I'm glad I met them. I don't know how much I would understand if I hadn't, limit as my understanding might still be.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

You could very well be right - I admit I don't know enough about the situation to really know. But what you're saying makes a lot a lot of sense. It's a bit like giving aid to Africa and just ignore the debt suffered at the same time.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

By those standards, everyone everywhere are immigrants and we should all be going back to Africa. *eyeroll*

And some new finds do suggest Aborigines have been in Australia as far back as 60,000 years. And if they came in boats, they understood boat handling tens of thousands of years before other humans did. or we've got it all misunderstood. Either way, understanding their arrival in Australia means giving up some Accepted As Facts ideas, really.

Australia has so much inherent racism still. It makes me sad. I mean, some people still refuse to accept it was even a genocide. Or apologise. Bite me, Howard.

You're always welcome in Norway, babe. I got a spare bed.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Thing is, though - you don't start on equal ground. Easy enough to say it should be based on merit *if* the playing field was fair. It is not. It is so not. Ethnic minorities often live in poorer areas with poorer schools. The quality of education is lower - so grades get lower too. It doesn't mean they're less smart. It means life's fucking unfair. It's like trying to compete in a 400 metre sprint and have to start 50 metres behind.

That said, I haven't the smallest clue if AA is the right way. You could be right. But you see, I hope, where it might come from.

nice to know there's another fellow bleeding heart liberal out there.

Now, now. Bleeding heart *social democrat*, thank you very much. :P

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Preceptions probably get muddied by groups with specific agendes, I'm think. Which is just... Gah. Not the same thing at all, hello.

Bush's big toy Risk game

Hah! That's one of the more succint summaries I've seen.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

That's just sad. If you don't learn what's actually wrong, it's just helping ignorant racism of the kind "oh, they're just lazy". Shudder.

In Tasmania they were all killed, correct?

Howard... I remember living under Howard. I want to throw things at him *still*.

[melliyna.livejournal.com]

Yes - it's horrific how little many Australians seem to know about the history of their country beyond "Gallipoli, Captain Cook, Settlers." I did an Australian History course last year and there were so many things even I didn't know.

I'm fairly sure all the full blood Aborigines were killed but there are still Tasmanian Aboriginal descendants around. Trouble is this creates more prejudice and argument about deserving benefits.

John Howard always makes me want to throw things. At the moment my current state of wanting to throw things is largely brought about due to the whole "Evil left wing ABC" angle.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*nods* Which is why I think we've done okay in Norway - our governmemt acknowledged and apologised for the things done. In itself just words, but words change perceptions and perceptions change the world. It is a shame to take on, yes, but if you're so willing to claim the pride of your country, take what comes with it.

for there are moments when you can taste the foul ashes of Auschwitz like the essence of an ancient shame in your mouth, even if none of your forefathers has ever been there.

Yeah. I can only imagine. The Nazi sure fucked over Germans too. But hey, out of the shadows of that you've rebuilt the country. You can have pride for what is today. I certainly found the German love under the World Cup quite touching and not offensive at all.

My country was done a wrong to by yours. But that wasn't you and me. My country pillaged and burned Ireland. That wasn't me either. If we were to nurture ancient grudges, everyone would hate everyone. Acknowledge reposibilities to fix wrongs, yes. But you gotta move beyond the past as well or it's all you ever see.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

That is depressing. The gyspies in Europe in general still get kinda screwed over, me thinks. And it doesn't get talked about as much. Clearly, that needs to change, though what should be done, I don't know.

Gotta start with the foundation to build a good house, eh?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Which is why, you'll note, I made a distinction between any sort of personal blame or guilt and taking responsibility for fixing something that was done wrong by people before you. I was born into privilege. It was to a certain degree a privilege that came from screwing other people over generations ago. My fault? Nooo. But when I benefit from it, I do feel a certain responsibility.

For same rights, I point to my reply here.

When I was in the US, I had people insinuate I was a slut for being Scandinavian. I've been called a Commie. I've been told I'm going to hell. I've been told all women in my country are neglecting children. And so it went on. All this because certain forces in the very very right of American politics seemed to be running a bit of a campaign to label everything we did as wrong and horrific. Politics. There's shit on all sides.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Very good points, there.

I never got the American Dream. Maybe there was a time when it was more true than now, but now it seems so obviously... Well, too simple. Doesn't seem to take into acount that so often, making it is as much luck as hard work.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

That's gotta be unnerving to discover. Like finding a box in the attic discovering your grandmother lived twice as long as you were taught and you know nothing of her life then except some dusty photographs.

Ah, I see. Did not know that. Live and learn.

Are they still on about that? When did a TV station not bowing to the current government but instead actually fulfilling some of the Fourth Estate ideal become a bad thing?

[melliyna.livejournal.com]

The current thing with the ABC was set off by the new managing director basically saying that the ABC needed to become more balanced (I believe he wants to set up a "bias inspector" position).

It was kind of unnerving in a bad way (especially learning about the extent of White Australia and the fact that Aborigines weren't allowed to vote until the 70's) but it was also good because it meant I was learning things about my country - faults and all and that can only be good.

[wintergreen126.livejournal.com]

i completely understand what you're saying. suburbian school districts, especially those in wealther areas, have distinct advantages over those in poorer and more urban districts. the disparities are ugly. but that's kind of what i meant by taking particular factors into consideration, like some schools don't offer advanced placement classes (for which you can receive college credit, but there is an exam you must pay to take) for financial reasons or simply because they don't have teachers qualified to teach it.

interestingly, to level the playing field for college admissions, elite schools like harvard and princeton have thrown away early decision admissions.

aaaand that has nothing to do with AA, and i'm just starting to sound argumentative. and i'm not an argumentative person. sorry!

[lotus79.livejournal.com]

I did an Australian History course last year and there were so many things even I didn't know.

Same. I thought I was fairly well informed and open minded, then I had to a unit called "Aboriginal and Multicultural Education" as part of my teaching degree. There were so very many things I did not know.

I remeber the list of "myths" they handed out. One of them was "There are no Aboriginal people left in Tasmania". And the aforementioned "But aren't they just immigrants too?"

I read My Place at school, but it wasn't til I was 22 that I learned Aboriginal people didn't even have the vote until 1967. We studied Oodgeroo Noonuccal poems in year 10 English, but my teacher didn't even pronounce the name right. (I also discovered this at age 22 when I read her autobiography. Highly recommended, by the way)

And I'm preaching to the converted, so I shall stop. So many people don't even know the basics though. And they don't even know they don't know.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Heh. No worries. Different viewpoints is always good. Not to mention I can get annoyingly argumentative on my own. Whoops.

Perhaps the conclusion is that the whole system of education has problems- and not all about race either. It certainly seems that way by some of the points I've heard here.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Oooohkay....

Yes. You can never strive to better until you know what faults there are, really.

[highwindpav.livejournal.com]

I think you're right, in comments, that whatever is to be done has to start much much earlier than Affirmative Action can deal with. I do wonder how it can be done though...and if it were done by some miracle, would it be fair to continue with Affirmitive Action?

Since I was raised in an area that was very diverse in skintone, where it could easily be argued that black was the majority based on what was most visible in my middle school (as I recall, out of fifty cheerleaders, my sister was the only white one), if the situation of education were addressed there and the playing field leveled, then Affirmitive Action would have penalized my sister and I for growing up in a racially diverse, relatively poor area.

We didn't grow up in the worst trouble spots for education, but certainly not the best, either. Although, considering the climate and some of the teachers I had when I later moved to a well-off white neighborhood with a sprinkling of local indigenous students, I think I was better off socially and educationally in the poorer district.

Looking through the comments left, I think that perhaps the myth of the American Dream and its results are both personal and social. That's one reason why the NBA now requires its players to dress and act in public as if they were professionals, which they are. It had been discovered that too many children were using as role models black basketball players that were not acting like professionals, and then being surprised when going to get jobs, that their emulation of players that were not acting like professionals shut many doors. And then these young people often hollared and stomped their feet about racism, when in reality, the people hiring for jobs mainly wanted someone who would act like a professional.

I suppose the NBA hopes that now if any young people take players as role models, they will also emulate the professionalism, which certainly can't harm their ability to get jobs.

I don't believe in the myth of the American Dream, but I do think that anyone looking for jobs ought to act like they want jobs, and that means in every case acting like the professional world. Me and my whiteness wouldn't be able to get a job in the professional world any better than certain black people could if I went in without at least an attempt at looking and acting the part--that means not speaking as I would at home as well, which is far more careless with English, so it's not just having a nice looking shirt and trousers or a dress.

Anyway, I certainly recognize that many, many people are born into social situations that automatically put them at a disadvantage, and that should be addressed, so I'm not ignoring the social aspect. I suppose I think on the personal aspect more since, if I had a political party, it would be Libertarian, as I lean that way more than I do others, and that I know there are many people who have overcome those disadvantages and have done quite well for themselves. It certainly wouldn't hurt for the rest of the country to help make those disadvantages disappear, though.

Eh, I'll stop now.

[siraj.livejournal.com]

Sadly, it's true. Everythin that's wrong in this country gets blamed on the other side. It's never THEIR fault!

*twitches and wishes for a poll hammer and a way into Congress to start splattering brain matter on the walls*

[siraj.livejournal.com]

"If we were to nurture ancient grudges, everyone would hate everyone."

In the US, it's there. It's called the ACLU. And the current US government.