A Matter of Faith

[misscam]

I've been hesitant to bring this issue up, as most people I have on my flist I do not have this problem with, but here goes anyway.

As most of you probably know, I don't believe in God. Or the Goddess or Allah or any sort of Creator. I don't rule it out, but I don't believe it.

So don't ask me for prayers. I cannot give them. I have no address to give them to. I will offer sympathies and wishes and hope, but your prayers you will have to get elsewhere. This does not mean I don't care, but I cannot start believing just to give you that prayer.

Secondly, please don't talk about "saving" us non-believers. Don't assume all atheists live in ignorance and need to be set straight. And please, do not capitalise "Save". I find it offensive. I made my choice as others have, and who are you to say thus I'm somehow inferior and I need to be "Saved" from it? My life, my choices, my consequences. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I cannot believe just to sort of be on the safe side. For better or worse, there is no organised religion for me.

So you might ask - what does the young Miss Camilla believe?

I believe compassion, mercy, justice and good deeds are human concepts, not Universal ones, but that this does not make them any less important to us. I believe in life and death and that you cannot have one without the other, but that life is so fragile we need not invent evernew reasons to bring it to an end. I believe we do not know everything and never will, but that searching for answers matters anyway. I believe simplicity can breed complexity and thus humans came to be. I believe my footprints in the sand will fade after I die, but they will still have been there. I believe the most important meanings in life you create yourself. I believe - that whatever your faith, it is what it gives you that matters. That will never be the same from person to person and none of us can know which is better (or even is there is such a thing as "better faith"). Nor can we know if any of us even needs to be saved. This I believe.

Of course, how well we live by our beliefs is another matter - perhaps one more suited for another day.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

You remind me a little of one of my best friends- she, too, is an atheist. I found that all that is ever come from my relationship with her is mutual profit.

She's taught me that I can't always be in my Killer Convert Mode- it does no good. Nobody is going to understand my enlightenment, or think any good of it, if I'm always trying to shove it down their throats. The number ONE thing that Bekka has done is demonstrate the massive, beautiful free will of humanity...her 'God' is a fat man that has rainbow toesocks.

In return for my being passive, I have gained the trust and friendship of a sweet and intelligent girl.

This being the reason I generally do not badger people who have already explained why they do not believe what I do. It is their choice. If they're open to discussion, fine. If not, what's the point?

--Just thought that train of thought kinda fitted in with yours. fondued jicama

[krazykat.livejournal.com]

That is one of the most articulate and eloquent statement of beliefs. I find such a declaration admirable.

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

I wish I'd been so eloquent about being atheist a few years ago.

I believe my footprints in the sand will fade after I die, but they will still have been there.

Ooh... someone at the message board I frequent started a "favorite quotes" thread, I'm tempted to list this one...

[elenculda.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

I get so tired from time to time of people who label atheists as immoral, evil people -- at the same time, you get members of the religious clergy who are committing heinous moral crimes. It isn't what religion one belongs to, or does not belong to, that determines one's character. One of the wonderful things about religion is that it places an emphasis upon being a good person, but naturally -- like everything else that is human -- there will be corruption.

[mademoisellenon.livejournal.com]

Some are convinced that *their* way is the only right, acceptable way, etc. All those who decide to stroll in the other direction are automatically in the wrong and will immediately troop off to hell. I personally always liked hot weather conditions ;)

I've (it's my birthday, I'm allowed to rant about myself) always gotten driven up the wall because apparently I'm supposed to be against birth control and abortion and gay marriage and all that good stuff because I am a Catholic. That's just annoying (!) so I totally symphathize with you on that point of converters needing to get a clue and cease existing.

We - each of us - believe what makes us happy, gives us solace, etc. Sadly some need to impose their beliefs on others and consequently give the rest belonging to the same religion a bad name.

Had a lovely confession with you the other night, Madame. Find it very strange that you didn't give me penance (and absolution) but that's probably because I wouldn't stop ogling Nordic men ;)

[adoraheatherly.livejournal.com]

This was beautiful, Miss Cam. As a fellow atheist I can identify with so much of what you said here and I love how you were able put it across so eloquently.

The most difficult thing I have had to deal with as a non believer is not the attempts at conversion. Its the pity, the whole patronizing attitude of "you poor unenlightened creature! I'm going to pray that you find God's love."

Not all religious folk behave this way thankfully. I have many Christian friends who are able to acknowledge that their way is not absolute and respect my beliefs without censure.
However, those who feel that their way is the only manner in which one should live and believe and all that deviates is wrong are not only delusional but dangerous. Get enough of people like those together and you have the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition or the Bush administration. (heh)

The point is, belief or non belief should be nothing more than a personal choice. When it moves beyond that, it inevitably becomes intolerance.
If people want to honor their religion, they should do so through love, compassion and helping others, not by forcing beliefs upon them. That destroys the whole point of faith in my opinion. Being a good person is not based on the absence or presence of God in your heart, its in the way you treat others.

Until there is concrete, scientific, irrefutable evidence proving the existence of a God, a wise person and a tolerant one will accept and acknowledge the fact that they could very well be wrong.
The only true enlightenment is in realizing we don't know everything and probably never will.

[doubtful-salmon.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear!

I believe very soundly in this because it took me so much to break it from myself even when I had logically figured it out.

I did, however, discover last night that if the electoral college came to me and said, "If you pray to god, we will give Kerry the winning votes," I would say, "Hail Mary, full of grace..."

[reia.livejournal.com]

I've never done that, have I? I try not to at any rate. I'm proud of being a Christian, (though I doubt you could call me a conventional one) but I'd never want to impose my beliefs on someone else.

[sliven.livejournal.com]

Wise words. I haven't experienced "salvation" I never asked for, but I guess it's quite annoying...
I used to be *very* anti-religious, but then I realized that my "you are free to believe whatever you want"-philosophy rightfully should apply to religious people as well. Silly me.
I'm still suspicious towards religion, but at least I keep my thoughts to myself now-days (unless someone actually asks for my opinion).

[jakie-f.livejournal.com]

*claps*

Hear, hear.

Though I would point out that wneh people offer prayers for you because of some crises you're going through, they really are just saying they'll keep you in their thoughts. I don't think it's meant to infringe on your beliefs, but if that's how you feel...

I tend to offer cyber-hugs-and-cookies, anyway. *offers*

...query: Is atheism a religious beliefe? Is white a color? The world may never know...

[sasja-sokolov.livejournal.com]

There's not much left for me to say after everyone else's comments, but I definitely agree with you on God. The existance of a higher power hasn't been proven, but it also hasn't been disproven, so I'd be open to either idea.

Also, do you celebrate Halloween in Norway? Just curious...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Goes both ways, though. I know I often keep myself from making comments about what I find to be utterly illogical gaps in some beliefs. Some atheists are as passionate as the most ardant fundamentalists, I find. I try not to be one.

But if nothing else, an atheist might help you as a believer think a bit about why you believe what you believe and maybe even strengthen it. The opposite might also be true, who knows?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Quote away if you like.

I have been an atheist for a long time, but it has taken me a while to realise why. Probably because it meant understanding how I think on some level too. That's not always an easy task, let me tell you ;)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Religion in itself doesn't make people good or bad. It's what you do with it. Same with atheism. It's very, very possible to do bad in the name of good and be blind to it. If history has proven anything, it's that belonging to a "good" cause does not mean atrocities will not be committed.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Happy birthday, you French snot :P

I suppose part of the problem with organised religion can be the hierarchy. The leaders impose their interpretation of the religion on those below in standing and so it goes. Becomes a habit after a while, I suppose.

Of course, some of this may come from the days of Dark Age Europe when most people could not read and thus not interpret and find their own meanings in the faith. But this is no longer true? Do we really need people to tell us what to believe anymore?

[krazykat.livejournal.com]

You are welcome. One of my long-held beliefs is that everyone need to think about their own personal spiritual opinions and ideas. Along the same lines of that is as a belief in a Deity or lack thereof is such a personal thing, I should never impede on your beliefs and vice versa.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the patronising is my main problem with religion, not the belief itself. It's like they think my life cannot be worth living without their exact faith. But I'm the one living it, not them.

So I agree with you that religion is mainly of the private sphere. It can people define who they are and how they view the world. The problem comes when they try to bend the world into this definition. I refuse to live in Bush's definition of the world, same as with bin Laden. Their world is not my world and neither of us sit with all the answers. Sometimes, a little humility goes a long way.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Now that isn't necessarily faith - just desperation ;) Heck, I've offered tributes to Odin if I'm saved enduring the Shrub another four years.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Nah, I can't say I've had a problem with you in that area. I might have muttered to myself about some of your posts, but that's more normal disagreement rather than having felt insulted.

Besides, you're cute. I forgive cute ;)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*nods* The problem can be that Christianity, for instance, have been in power so long and in some ways still is, so as an atheist, one tends to feel a bit like striking back. Not that this makes it okay to do, of course.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I think you misunderstood me a bit. My problem is not that someone who believe might offer a prayer for me. That is how they might feel they are helping me and if that makes them feel better... My problem is when someone who know I don't believe ask me to give a prayer for them. I can't, yet I then feel bad. They're asking something I cannot give without being someone other than myself and some of them don't seem to realise this. That is my problem with it.

Whether atheism is a religion or not depends how you define religion and who you consider atheists, me thinks.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Somewhat, but it isn't a public holiday and it's not anywhere near the scale the US does it on.

[jakie-f.livejournal.com]

Ah. Well, that makes sense.

[elenculda.livejournal.com]

I agree. That's what I was trying to say :)

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Thanks. :)

I don't know how long I've really been atheist, I think I was for a long while (perhaps starting when I was 8 or younger) and only admitted it to myself when I was 17. I tried to be Christian and said I believed in God and all, but none of it ever felt real to me, which I do consider important. Whenever I heard "God's voice" talking to me, I knew that those were my own thoughts reciting what I expected God to say. And, of course, there was the question of how I would have known or believed in God if I had never been conditioned by my family to that bothered me.

The Christian bigots I was really becoming aware of didn't help, either, and as I was getting used to the fact that I no longer was a part of the religion they claimed to be a part of, I guess I tried separating myself from them by ranting about how ignorant and horrible those hateful people were. Unfortunately, sometimes I didn't take care to say I meant only the bigoted idiots and not ALL Christians, and that made me sound just plain anti-Christian, which I will forever regret and remember to avoid doing in the future.

I love introspecting and analyzing why I think the way I do, and learning why others think the way they do. ^_^ (Though it can make me annoyingly wordy and nosy. Drat being an English major! :P)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I know exactly what you mean.

There was a time in my life when I flung myself into Christianity because I needed something greater to believe in - but no matter how hard I tried, I could not feel it. I did not believe. I wanted to, I tried to... But it did not come. This is why I know there's no "Saving" me by showing me Christianity. Seen it, tried it - ultimately walked away from it. It is not for me.

[doubtful-salmon.livejournal.com]

Me too. Also Buddha.

[anckyria.livejournal.com]

Well said! I wholeheartedly agree. The way I see it, morality and ethics do not and should not depend on religious beliefs.

[sasja-sokolov.livejournal.com]

Thanks. :)

[shandydann]

Its a funny thing faith, I think that athiests are the bravest people I know, my father coffeestayne is an athiest. I'm undecided, I'm not that brave. I often find that athiests and some pagans, are the most liberal, charitable people I know. They act like that because you have to live your life like its your last day because it could be. They try not to treat people badly or be selfish, nor do they force their beliefs on others. When I think of all the wars and arguements over religions it makes me sad. Because despite the fact that some believers have charity and love in their hearts, bigitory and hate exist in others, or even in shades of some beliefs.

[(Anonymous)]

Hear, hear! **wild and vigerous applauding and cheers**
--Tathrin

[misscam.livejournal.com]

That's not only true of religion, though. There are many, many things humans use as a vehicle for biogtry, hate, opression... But religion can perhaps be the strongest vehicle of all as it allows people to claim this is not them saying it, it is God's voice. Lends a certain weight to your argument, y'know?

[shandydann]

Yeah, but its the intrepretation of that word as well. So that leads to even more arguments. Small Gods is a good book at looking at how religions can go. Its like when you look at what the Anglican church is going through at the moment, with it trying to get the American Anglican church to apoligise for appointing an openly gay bishop. I hope they dont appoligise.

[(Anonymous)]

I think you've managed to some up a large part of my views, and I'm Christian. Those who know me well(and many who don't) are aware of my faith(it's sort of obvious; I wear a cross, and since I'm slightly allergic to the metal, it's nearly always outside my shirt) and they realize that I'm always willing to talk about it...but I don't insist on it. I'm not out to convert the masses. Heck, my parents aren't even out to convert the masses, and they're missionaries. One of the most wonderful things about being at a rather liberal college is that a protestant, a catolic, a Buddist, a Muslim and an ateist can et into a relious discussion and respect eac oters beliefs and still be friends afterwards. On te oter and, wen a political discussion turned to ay marriae, I was asked if I was aware of wat te Bible says about omosexuality. Well yes, Ive read Leviticus. But America was founded on te basis of relious freedom, and I believe in separation of cur and state. I personally am not sure weter or not I aree wit ay marriae, on a relious basis. But if I want te freedom to live and to worsip as I see fit, ten I must be willin to extend tat freedom to all wo do me no arm--and so I tink it sould be leal. Please pardon my typos, my keyboard is actin up, and wont type certain letters. *treatens to take computer to student computin*

[(Anonymous)]

Man I wish I could edit that, now that the keyboard is working again...it reads like it was written by a Mary Sue.