Cam Ponders Race and Catherine&Warrick

[misscam]

Catherine&Warrick screencaps, season two (made by yours truly, of course)

East of the Sun, West of the Moon has Chapter Nine up

Various Links:
Swedish preacher recieves death threat after calling Mohammed a pedophile - I'm not sure whetever to eyeroll or headdesk at that one. Sheesh.
Porn surfers get their jobs back
The battle over gay marriage rages on in the US
Does an online test for racism work?

Racism is an iffy issue, innit? It exists in subtle forms all around and in not-so-subtle forms in far too many places. But I wonder if in these days when battling racism has become a fighting cause, we've turned a blind eye to the subtle racism within ourselves, fearful that if we admit it's there even to ourselves, that will make us bad people. I wonder. It is iffy even to consider that *I* might have some racist biases, even if they are slight. I squirm even thinking about it. But on the other hand, if I don't even look, how will I ever fight it?

I was thinking a bit about this when writing a Catherine/Warrick scene - if you know the show, you know he's black and she's white - and I was wondering if I was shying away from touching on the fact that they are of different race out of fear of doing it badly. Should it even be an issue? To me, love is love. I don't much think gender, age, race or footsize should stand in the way. But in this world, this imperfect human world, I cannot deny that all these things can be obstacles.

But then again, maybe I'm overthinking this. It's fanfic, after all, not a speech to the world. Still... I have sometimes wondered if some people have had issues with the C/W ship due to the interracial factor. There has been some posts I have come across that have given me those vibes. I could be overreacting. I could be feeling protective of one of my ships. I could be trying to chase slight racial biases out of my own mind. I still do wonder. A few decades ago, Catherine and Warrick would not be trading flirts on a prime time TV show. How far have we come?

How far do we still have to go?

Comments

[reia.livejournal.com]

I was thinking a bit about this when writing a Catherine/Warrick scene - if you know the show, you know he's black and she's white - and I was wondering if I was shying away from touching on the fact that they are of different race out of fear of doing it badly.

Well, I agree with you that race shouldn't be a problem, but I would think it would play into their relationship a little. I don't mean in a bad way - lots of interracial couples joke about it with each other. But when writing it, I think it would be difficult.

Should it even be an issue? To me, love is love. I don't much think gender, age, race or footsize should stand in the way. But in this world, this imperfect human world, I cannot deny that all these things can be obstacles.

I find it's usually the family that would be the problem. My family just found out this past week that my cousin has gotten a black girl pregnant. On the one hand, his parents had a fit. Not because she's black, but because she's sixteen (he's almost nineteen). On the other hand, her step-father freaked out, because of her age - but mostly because my cousin is white. After a couple of days though, both families have calmed down and are thinking clearly. So yeah, I think race will always play slightly into a relationship, but mostly with people on the outside.

[mercury-dragon.livejournal.com]

I just don't stress about it. Xenophobia is a part of human nature, 'sall '- as long as you can overcome it and don't let it cloud your thinking, etc, who cares?

[anansay.livejournal.com]

You know, I still get fazed when I hear people talking about racism. I never really think about things like that, like how the colour of a person's skin can be used to judge the person themselves. People were just always people to me.
I knew about how the black/dark skin/african american people were treated... the North/South wars.. the underground train... the hangings... how everythign was separated for white people and black people. But I thought it had all been dealt with. And then I hear more stories of how it's still going on in insidiously evil ways and I have to stop, catch my breath and wonder just how far we've come and how far we have yet to go. It baffles me!
Racism....
Sexism...
Ageism...
Why?


If I knew Catherine and Warrick's 'voices' I would have written them a long time ago. But I didn't want to them injustice. And coupled with that was the fact that I was completely obsessed with the Grissom/Sara (un)ship so that I didn't really 'see' any other relationship. They were just extraneous faces that surrounded "my ship."

If you feel like writing Catherine/Warrick, then go for it! If you know the voices/characteristics why not? Let those who have issues with the colour of people's skin deal with their own issues. Don't make them yours. I would LOVE to read a hot and steamy scene between those two. I think Catherine and Warrick have a lot of sexual heat that's just bursting to come out. And if it's together, than all the more better! :)

[pajamas.livejournal.com]

I think about the Cath/Warrick race thing all the time. It's amazing to me, and quite comforting, that we've come so far in terms of acceptance. And though I've never explicitly read anyone not liking them because of the race issue, I know there have to be people like that out there because that's just how things are. People can be mean and stoopid. >:O

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Good point. If you're in love, you're in love. It makes everything else secondary.

There's definitly variation in how big a problem it could be for those outside depending on where they live, past family history, all that jazz. I don't think there is a definite answer.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, it does cloud a lot of people's thinking.

[hadria.livejournal.com]

Well, I think it's only human nature that differences become an issue. It's not necessarily right but I don't think it's all that wrong either - or makes anyone racist or sexist or a homophobe or agist, but just a reaction to society in general. We also all worry that a relationship won't work and it's human nature to attribute reasons for why it won't work before the relationship even begins (my first doubt about my boyfriend was that his big Italian family was too big and we would never have alone time so it was doomed to fail! - how sad is that? - well it is failing, but for different reasons, ha). Take Grissom and Sara as well, he's fifteen years older than her. I don't care but a lot of people have a problem with it (like on TWoP, where they think it's daddy issues, which ahhh, no), including probably Grissom himself because he's attributed stereotypes about May/December romances to their own relationship. So obviously, it would play into their relationship and even is an obstacle. Similairly, I recently read an article about how black men feel guilty if they date white women because it feels like they're validating the past somewhat and abandoning their own.

I'm not saying it's always an issue, some people are able to have issue-free relationships where even their families don't create problems, and in the particular case of C/W, I don't think it would be an issue for them but I think it's reasonable that it would cross their minds somewhere along the way.

I actually prefer Warrick with Mia, and while I'm sure anyone's first impression would be that it's because they're the same race, it's actually 'cause I adore Aisha Tyler and think she's way hot so I kind of want to see her character with the hottest guy.

As for that online test, it said that I strongly prefer the US to Canada. Which, um, no. I don't. I was totally expecting it to say that I had rated off the roof on negative bias against the US, so shows you how much the test knows. :P

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I didn't use to think much about it either until a few years ago. Norway's very sheltered in many ways, and quite tolerant, too (allowing gay marriage, come far in women's rights, etc). But a few years ago a young boy named Benjamin Hansen was stabbed to death in Oslo, where I lived. He was 15. He went to school just a stonethrow away from where I was taking Uni classes. We probably sat on the same bus. And he was killed because he was black. His father was African, his mother Norwegian. He'd been born and raised here and was as Norwegian as I am, as anyone born here. His killers were young neo-Nazis, pretty much kids themselves.

Sometimes, I think we haven't gotten anywhere far at all.

Oh, I have and will continue to write Catherine&Warrick, have no fear. I'm just considering how I'm writing them, is all. (And if you really want to read them getting hot - Ahem. I have no shame.)

I was only noticing Grissom&Sara for a while, myself ;)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Even in cases where race might be why someone didn't like C/W, I don't think people would neccessarily admit to a) not liking C/W due to racism, out of not wanting to be branded racist or b) not even being aware of it themselves. We form dislikes based on gut feelings every day, after all.

[chem-nerd.livejournal.com]

Catherine and Warrick don't seem to mention the racial differences. so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Probably very true. We always seek differences, I guess partly out the fact that we're born to differentiate. There's me - and there's everyone else. A sense of differences comes along with a sense of self, me thinks. And you're probably very right about looking for percieved causes for trouble in a relationship - a way to hold onto some dignity if it breaks apart, I guess, and say "it wasn't me, it was cause X".

And I don't really see either Catherine or Warrick being that concerned about race in a possible relationship, no, but that doesn't mean someone else could put it into play.

You know, I think Grissom's age thing is just another way of putting a shield between him and Sara. It's not the real issue, but can serve as a block still.

And hey, you don't have to justify your ship choices to me - we like what we like, right?

I'm scared to know what my US bias has become after four years of hissing at Bush. Oy vey.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

You're probably right. But I am probably projecting a bit. I'm still remembering Benjamin's death and my own anger at ugly racism within parts of my own country.

[chem-nerd.livejournal.com]

Racism is indeed a very very ugly thing. In my opinion, one of the best things about C/W is that they don't seem to see the race. They see each other as people, as coworkers. as friends, and possibly something more...but not as races. It's as if they're blind to it. If only the rest of the world were as well.

[araeph.livejournal.com]

I looked for that test and tried to take it, but it made me really dizzy and I had to quit. One thing I did notice, though. I understand why white faces would be preferred in this context - because the test is taken on a black screen. I think that the test-makers thought, "Black screen, that gives no information, it's a neutral background, right? Ideal thing to use in this test." Problem is, the eye looks for what stands out. If you are given a dark face on a dark background and a light face on a dark background, your eye will be automatically drawn to the light face. That's not racism; the opposite would happen if you had a dark face on a light background and a light face on a light background.

I'm not saying that it's entirely inaccurate, just that there's probably a better way to go about this test. Neutral gray, all the way.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

We always strive for perfection... But we can always hope we'll get there one day.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Huh. I didn't think about that, but that is a good point, actually. Interesting...

[rose-noire.livejournal.com]

Well, I'd think a lot of people would have a problem with the racial issue. Mostly because they'd think that you should date your own race. Really, it's like in real life because many people do have a problem with different races.
I admit it. I did think about how Warrick is black and Cath is white, and I was a bit iffy on it. But I got over it because they are so meant for eack other.

yay for csi caps!

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

How far do we still have to go?

Entirely too far. Racism hasn't diminished one iota, it's just gone underground, which makes it even harder to root out.

[silvery-lass.livejournal.com]

Well, the preacher is an idiot,only a complete idiot or someone with a death wish would claime such a thing, and for the record he is from Norway he just lives over here.

[ekwy.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I resent Miss Cam saying that Runar is Swedish! He is a silly, silly Norwegian man, he is! *flicks rubber-bands at Runar*

[anansay.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I think we headed on the right track toward seeing everybody as no better and no lesser than ourselves and I can smile. And then I hear of people are still teaching those narrow-minded viewpoints to their children and I know that those kids'll grow up hating others simply because they look different and I can no longer smile.
I want to shake those people senseless and demand to know how they can still think like that.
But that kind of thinking has been going on for centuries... :(

[chem-nerd.livejournal.com]

Interesting...that test thinks I have a marginal preference for blacks. Actually, I don't. I just can't tell the difference between blacks and whites from black-and-white photographs. Unless the picture is very dark or very light, I just see a person.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yes. Humans are still very much humans, for better or worse.

I remember reading David Irving's (infamous neo-Nazi) lulaby for his daughter and... Ye Gods. The things he's gonna teach his kid...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

As it should be, really, but rarely is.

I'm curious how such a test with biases against Arabs these days. Hmhmm.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Brave of you to admit that and very good that you got over it. All humans grow up with biases of one kind or another and what's really important is how we deal with them.

Season one screencaps still to come. Whee.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yes. But gotta keep on trying. Not much else to do.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

:P He's lived there so long you guys have an equal claim to him, Mr. Carola and all.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

He's Norwegian-Swedish these days.

*flicks rubber-bands at Runar also* Git.

[nirix5.livejournal.com]

As far as the whole black/white C/W thing goes, all I can tell you is that if they get together or if you write them together, then a couple of the people around them might have problems with it- but it's going to be the keep-it-to-themselves, occasionally-raise-an-eyebrow kind of misgiving, not outright hatred or racism. My ex and I used to run into that sometimes- he was black; I'm white. Occasionally we'd get nasty looks from people when we went down the street holding hands, but our friends were cool with it, and that was what mattered. The other thing I kind of ran into was- er, for lack of a better term, "push comes to shove" racism. i.e., my parents were all about being colorblind and raised me and my sister to be so, but when it came to one of their daughters dating a black guy, they had a slight problem with it. It was like he was a "black guy" first and my boyfriend second, if that makes any sense. Somehow, I can see Sam Braun or Cath's mother doing something similar, if you want to approach that angle at all.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Thank you. Insight from someone who has gone down that road is highly appreciated. And it's a good idea. I had considered getting Sam Braun slightly involved in the story, so adding another dimension to it might be interesting. I'd have to be very, very careful about how I did it, though.

And I think a lot a lot of people have that kind of push-come-to-shove bias (not neccesarily only about race - can be homosexuality, class, age...) that only comes out in those kind of cases.

Thanks!

[nirix5.livejournal.com]

You're welcome :) If you've got any other questions or whatever, let me know.

...Yeah. It's an odd kind of double standard that's very prevalent today, with everything having to be so politcally correct. You can be "I'm cool with gay/black/whatever people" but when it's someone close to you, you don't want that life for them. That's what my parents told me when they sat me down about it, anyway.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I may pick your brain on it later if I decide to make it an issue in this or a later story.

I've heard so may parents confronted with gay offspring day the same. PC hasn't killed biases, it has driven them underground. But sooner or later they come into the light and what we do with them then - that's what shows our real quality.

[kittkatbar77.livejournal.com]

hi hi! well, we talked about this online, so you know i totally agree with you, but i felt like commenting anyways. :) I am so in love with the fact that they are of different races, it get to be monotonous to see always the same thing...people of the same races being the ones that get together. Another couple i can think of like that is a couple on Grey's Anatomy (great show!) and that is Cristina and Burke. Burke is African American and Cristina is Korean. (someone correct me if i am wrong). I like that more shows are beginning to face the 'issue.' even though many people try to say that it isn't an issue, it still is in many ways. blah blah blah, i rattle on too much lol. guess i'll end this before it becomes like a sub-entry :)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah. We're all humans, we all came from the same pondscum. Race is really only about where your ancient, anciest forefathers and foremothers settled. Mine went to Norway to be cold and hence I'm pale as a ghost.

In a perfect world, we shouldn't have to address the race issue because it wouldn't exist. But it does. Ignoring it will not neccessarily make it all better. On the other hand, making too much of a deal out of it may be counterproductive.

Ah, the world is never simple.