Reviewing and Reading

[misscam]

Am still thinking over "friend a prejudice". If anyone liked the idea and would like to help me maybe organise it, give a shout.

Geekfiction debates anon posting and concrit versus flaming (Sparked by an anon review left in this post. Flame or not, you be the judge.)

It's an interesting debate - you'll see I made a few comments in there as well. Me, I don't want to play in a "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" pond. No story is perfect. Sometimes the flaws are so minor you don't much comment on them, but there's always something that can be improved. Writing is learning. You learn as you go, but it's very easy to be blind to your own writing and sometimes, you need someone to see for you and give a honest picture or you'll tumble around in the dark forever. Concrit isn't always easy to take, especially if you disagree with it yourself, but even if it's "wrong" in your eyes, it does make you think about how you write. And that in itself can be an aid.

Concrit is often trying to be helpful. Flames usually aren't. The line can be blurred and I've seen too many authors call even the tiniest hint of critisism a flame. And I've seen fmales be masqued in a cape of concrit. It's not always black and white.

There is of course also a difference between how you comment on a fic to the author, and how you comment on it to others. The first often is phrased more tactfully since it's intended for the author. The latter is not (that's not to say an author can't find comments between readers useful, of course). GAFF is about the latter, contrary to what many believe. FF.net's review system can in a sense really be both, since others can read the comments. I sometimes read reviews before I read the fic, so in that sense the reviews are serving both purposes. Which can lead to conflicts, of course.

So which purpose does comments at Geekfiction serve? I'd think it's mainly addressed to the author. Which perhaps means there are certain ways comments should be phrased. Then again, I could be wrong.

It all makes me ponder a community for CSI fanfiction concrit for those who feel like me. But then again, authors can get just as much good congrit in the fanfiction communities there are if they openly encourage it.

In that spirit, I hereby offer Cam's Concrit Services. I am honest, occasionally blunt and have been around a few fandoms. I will not sugarcoat. I will not be mean just for the sake of it. Want a review from me? Let me know. I can't guarantee I always have the time, but if I do, I'll be as helpful as I can. (It can also be arranged to be done in private if you'd rather not have it as a public review.)

Nicked from kaltia, modified slightly
Everyone's got their own OTP for their OTF (One True Fandom?), let's face it. That one pairing you'll read above all else, that one pairing you'll stick up for in the name of love, and justice, and possibly crack.

Sometimes, other people just don't GET your fandom, or your pairing, and other times, people COULD like your pairing if they just knew where to find the proverbial fiction gold for it.

Behold Cam's choices, with recs.

Faramir/Éowyn

Through a Glass by Altariel
Why?Says in everything that isn't said just why those two connected

Now in Speech by The Bookbinder's Daughter
Why? Little scene of sharing and healing in the silence

Wooded Horses by Morithil
Why? Touching on not just the relationship between them, but the relationships that've formed them through their lives prior - and the echoes they do leave.

Grissom/Sara

Lullaby by Blaze6
Why? Summing up a lot about the two in a little roadtrip, without saying too much

The Wall Part One/Part Two by theohara
Why? A long Grissom-centric piece with a bittersweet take on his relationship to Sara (Als contains some Grissom/Catherine)

Mr. Neruda Hoodwinked Us All by hadria
Why? Messy, complicated and angsty. Like it is between them.

Catherine/Warrick (So hard to find good fanfic for this pair, sadly. Wah.)

Vital Signs by teenwitch77
Why? A look at the start of them, perhaps just why they connect so well and a tantalizing hint of the future

Alignment by VR Trakowski
Why? Just as the title says - alignment of more than one thing.

His Eyes by Abbie
Why? Naughtiness - but offering some insight between them too.

Delenn/John Sheridan

Danse Macabre by Gentle
Why? Funny, he thought, how easy it was to hurt and be hurt. Frightening, how a few ill-chosen words could break your heart.  Amazing, that he loved her just the same. Delenn and Sheridan and Anna and all of love's hurts.

The Journey Home by Gentle
Why? The sequel to "Danse Macabre". More sappy, but has some definite worthwhile bits.

Arcs of Silver Light by Azremodehar
Why? Silliness, but does offer a glimpse of the lovely tilted view of all things human Delenn offer

I need to read more good fanfic, I do.

Comments

[velocityofsound.livejournal.com]

I'd love some concrit for my past work if you wouldn't mind, although I do realize my stories are all over the place. General writing style comments would be lovely, or if there was ever a particular story you read of mine that something struck you when you read it (Like, you kill the characterization here, or you lost me with wordiness here, or whatever.), or you felt displayed a certain weakness clearly, that would also be very much appreciated. My CSI Fic Tag (http://www.livejournal.com/users/velocityofsound/tag/csific) should bring you to a lot of it, anyway. I'd try to pick one, but as I am so blah about my writing lately anyway, none really catch my interest enough to be properly reviewed, even though I'd like something to concentrate on while writing my next piece - maybe give it a bit of focus.

And you can drop the concrit on me right here, or on any of my posts. I am many things, but not shy about this.

Of course, I would totally bounce this right back at you, and will gladly concrit any of your stories if you'd like.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I can do that. I'll pick one that interests me if you don't have any particular in mind. I usually do rad most of them, but concrit takes some thinking first to articulate your impressions.

*goes to hunt*

You may concrit me whenever you feel like, really. I'm lucky to have a friend who e-mails me these things a bit, but the more opinions the merrier, as my saying goes.

[velocityofsound.livejournal.com]

How about I will send you an e-mail along for your next story? If you have someone who has given you some feedback on your past work, this would be something fresh and maybe more helpful? Whatever you'd like - let me know.

As for flames vs. concrit - I am hesitant to label that post a flame as others have, although it certainly was bitchy. But to me a flame is something of little to no value, and that comment certainly outlined in a fairly clear fashion the reviewer's problems with the piece. Flames are rarely that coherent. But still, that is the type of comment I may/have make about a story in "private" because I am irritated by a lot of stories I have read, but if I am going to post a comment, I want the writer to take my comments seriously and I would not approach leaving concrit in that manner. It is better to outline a few positive things you find in the story (because you can, most of the time, find something positive to say) and then pick a few things that you had a problem with and be clear without being negative. Basic Persuasion 101. Also, if it is something I am tempted to leave anonymously, I don't post it at all. Generally a bad sign.

But I have had the urge to leave that type of review before, I can fully admit it. The "this is the worst piece of shit EVER, and I hope I can scare you out of writing, because although I try to be supportive of writers most of the time even if they are rather weak, this is so offensive and idiotic I can't bite my tongue. There is no help for you. Step away from the keyboard." type review. I haven't yet because flame wars are more trouble than they are worth, but I'll break down someday.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

That might be good. Not sure what my next story will be - don't go after my WIP, it's horrid and I want to edit it - but the muse will surely toss something at me eventually. Probably something dark, giving everything of late.

You have a very good point and I quite agree about it having raised points worth considering. I do wonder how it would have been recieved had the tone been different. I've known good authors who balk at any critisism, but generally, those who are more accepting of concrit are usually the ones who climb above mediocreness, even if it takes time.

I know that urge so well it hurts. But you're right, giving in is failing Basic Persuasion 101. I guess this is why I hang at GAFF, where we say this shit to each other rather than authors and get it out of the system.

[kittycatness.livejournal.com]

I don't think that that review was a flame. Probably just me, though. It was sort of helpful, though.

Interesting recs. Will have to check a few out later.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I've certainly seen way, way worse when it comes to flames. But the tone of it was somewhat... Hostile, I guess, even if some of the points might be worth considering.

[belegcuthalion.livejournal.com]

Well, I gave the tale that caused the ominous comment a read, and I think that the only problem with "anon"'s opinion is the way she/ he put it down. You don't make an author listen if your tell him his story "is the worst tale you've ever read". The same points, clad in more friendly words, and the use of more politeness would have helped already.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yes.

As I said above, I really do think there's a difference in how you review for the author and how you comment on it to a friend or a fellow GAFFer or even to rec it. The difference can be subtle, but I do think it's there. "the worst tale you've ever read" is really not the sort of thing you should say to an author if you want to offer constructive critisism. It's more the sort of thing you'd bitch to a fellow friend (if you're the bitching kind).

[belegcuthalion.livejournal.com]

Which I am not. *grins* A few days ago, I finally found the heart to give my two pennies to a chapter I had been sent weeks ago to tell the author what I was thinking. And I sent her an email to tell her what exactly I thought was wrong with "her baby" - not the tale itself, but a general insecurity of language and some general problems with storytelling. I was friendly but open, and rather honest.

I waited to days with a sinking heart, expecting her to at least unfriend me or to send a fuming email back, but thankfully enough she was actually happy to hear a "real" opinion.

But do you know what? I hate things like that. I would make a lousy flame-writer (except during a chat with a close friend - and no one watching or reading).

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Sadly, that kind of anxiety is probably due to the huge number of writers who'll scream at any and all critisism. It's a shame.

Good to hear she took it well. That's one more for the good team.

[me2you.livejournal.com]

For me, that was a constructive flame, and I do think she (and others) could stand to learn a few things from that particular little bitchfest.

Maybe I need to start reading my fic filter again. Oh, the drama.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Drama drama drama, indeed. You're missing all the fun.

It can be pretty difficult to actually listen to a concrit/flame if you find it hurtful. I know the first time I got one I was all snotty about it. Baaaaad Cam. There's still that intial moment of "oh no, don't hurt my baaaaaaaby". So to a certain degree I understand the reaction.

However, if you want to play around in the fanfic pond, you have to get used to it. Sometimes, a story could be better. Sometimes, you make mistakes. And unless you learn to bite back the first initial urge to whinge you'll never learn.

[nirix5.livejournal.com]

Eh. As far as the fic itself went, I only read about halfway through the sex scene before giving up. Not that it was bad per se, but I haven't read the first half, and the way the sex was written was kind of off-putting for me (but then, I like a slightly different style; whatever, doesn't matter, really.)

I think the reviewer was kind of harsh, but at the same time, I wouldn't consider that review a flame. Flames, to me, are more along the lines of "OMG, this is disgusting," but then they go after the author themselves, and not the story. Ex: OMG, boy/boy, YOU ARE A SICK FREAK AND ARE GOING TO HELL." I didn't get the personal-nastiness factor from the anon review, really. I've seen worse reviews on ff.n to better stories- seriously, if you put your work up on the Net then you set yourself up for reviews like this. *shrugs* Take it with a grain of salt, or whatever. I wasn't particularly appreciative of msgrits' responses either, though. I'm sorry she lives in the hurricane zone and that her brother is missing- but how does that having anything to do with fanfic reviews? I just read her story, not her personal journal. Assuming Anon-person did the same thing, how would they know that she was having a hard time?

Eh. Fandom is a strange place, with rules that don't apply to anything in the real world. I wouldn't take anything that happens in any fandom too personally- most of it's illegal anyway, when you get down to it. Bah.

/rambling rant

Ooh. If you would concrit any of my stuff over at starsandtrucks, I would be squeeishly happy.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean.

And yeah - obviously I can understand being hurt at the harshness of that review, but I do think there's better ways to react than pull what feels like pity ploys or slam back. If true flames, that only tends to encourage. If actual concrit, it doesn't make the author look to good to respond so.

Then again, I remember how I first too my forst concrit. Le sigh. But we live and learn.

I shall see what I can do for a review or two.

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Mmm... that's definitely not a tone I'd use in a review I leave. Parts of it sound more like a rant or tirade than intentional concrit to me (like with that There's something called 'thesaurus rape' line). But if an author is truly serious about writing and getting their work around and making it better, I guess I'd recommend that they learn to take such things as gracefully as they can, if only to keep the fuel for flaming to a minimum. Professional authors aren't always shielded from the concrit, either. *remembers the Anne Rice incident*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Oooooh yeah. You post pubically, sooner or later you get this happening to you. If you deal with it gracefully, it becomes easier the next time. For there will be a next time, unless you become a hermit.

[chunkylimes.livejournal.com]

o.0

Dude, I'd be glad if someone gave me concrit like that. Yeah, some of it was flame-y, but it still made a point. That would be my attitude if I ever got a flame: hmmm, maybe they're right. And then I'd probably go all OCD on my fic and scour it for any possible fuckup.

But I'm weird like that.

Note: I'm begging you, for your sanity's sake, to not read anything I've written.

Yes, it's that bad.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

You should see the shit I wrote when younger. Shudder. We all start somewhere, that's how we get better.

And with that attitude, you're already off to a very good start, really.

[chunkylimes.livejournal.com]

Awww, thanks. I've never understood the people who go batshit over some one pointing out that the spell-check is a thing to be loved.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

because they're hurting the widdle baby?

[chunkylimes.livejournal.com]

I guess. Or that they're implying that suddenly the author's an axe-murderess for spelling "definitely" wrong.

[hadria.livejournal.com]

I'm in agreement that it wasn't so much a flame as it wasn't...intended to help the author. To me, a flame is 'you suck and your story sucks and your mama sucks kbibi'. Whereas this did raise some points and give reasons, although it would have been much better served emailing the author rather than publically posting it.

I think authors always need to remember that not everyone will love what you've written, and if someone thinks it's crap, then it is crap...to them. It doesn't automatically make it crap for everyone else.

Though, as a reader, it is sometimes frustating when you see a story you think is crappy get 5000000 reviews and one you think is exceptional get like, 3.

And I generally HATE concrit that's like "Grissom would never do that!" because really, it all depends on our perceptions. These characters are so fucked up and continuity-impaired that unless it's blatantly another character's words, Grissom could quite act like almost anything in any particular situation.

If I ever write anything else, I'd love some concrit from you. I'd love to know if what other people see as my writing weaknesses are the same as what I see as my writing weaknesses, though it is kind of hard to gather from one story, lolz.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

An opinion is an opinion and nothing less or nothing more. It does pay to remember, you're right.

The comment left did come across more as a rant more than a concrit, I suppose. The "worst fic ever read" was a bit flame-y (it is at least a common phrase used by flamers), but it did remain fairly fic centred, as opposed to going for a whole bunch of insults about the author.

There is, I think, a huge difference between reviewing with "Grissom would never do that!" and "I can't see Grissom doing that". The latter I think is valid as a point to raise ina review even if it may not be always helpful because interpretation may vary, as you said (in other words). But there is also a difference between interpretation and writing OOC. I've read fics where Grissom is just not Grissom at all because there is nothing left in him that is recognisable from the show without any explanation as to why. (In an AU, for instance, you could pull of certain changes of character by explaining their lives being different.)

If you write something else, I promise to concrit long and hard. So write.

Also, *smacks*. There shall be no 'lolz' in my LJ or I may have to bring the trouts.

Interesting tidbit

[starra-cat.livejournal.com]

I know this is probably off-subject but I am at a convention right now. John Noble (Denethor) is there also. He rocks. I will update with pictures, etc. Thought you would like to know.

Re: Interesting tidbit

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*envy*

[highwindpav.livejournal.com]

::looks at link::

That'd be a tough call for me. I think it treads the line between bad behavior and good concrit, but some of it was certainly flamey. It leans toward bad behavior to me. Written with more eloquence and less heat, it would have been the kind of thing I'd beg for. It'd still sting like hell, tho'.

That said, there's certainly good points to pull from it, if the author is willing to retranslate them in mind to something useful after applying the appropriate burn salves. Well, assuming any of it actually applies, not having read the fic. I guess, a review that certainly could have been said better and probably should have been said by someone else, but has many salvagable bits in it.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*nods* It is really a good illustration of why tone in reviews are important. You can have as many valid points as you like, but if it's strung together a certain way, it'll get the author off on the wrong foot from the start.

[teenwitch77.livejournal.com]

Hey, thanks for the recommendation, Cam. I'm glad you think that's a good Warrick/Catherine story. Isn't 'The Wall' an excellent Grissom fic?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

You're welcome :)

It kicks major ass, it does. Mmmm, goodfic. Way too little of that about.

[lilbakht.livejournal.com]

*Waves* Really, I think the "friend a prejudice" idea is lovely. I'd help to put that together.

Probably best in person, as at the best of times we occasionally forget net-folk are real human beings, but we could probably get a pretty diverse group this way.

Let me know if you were serious!

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I was. I'm sure you have some ideas about how to go at it yourself. I was obviously thinking of picking a designated week for it and get the list of "prejudices" people could borrow up well in advance so people know it's coming.

[lilbakht.livejournal.com]

*Hums "National Brotherhood Week" and snickers.* Sounds great so far! Just some logistics to hammer out:

a) Where should the conversations take place? Unless you'd like them to remain here so you can moderate (aka: delete anyone who really deserves it), we maybe should just arrange the pairings and go tell folk to talk at one of their own journals so you don't get flooded. Preference?

b) Everyone needings two pairings: one as the prejudiced and one as the prejudicee. I have that right? So it might take a post or two to collect the info. (Although there's a bit already for prejudicees!)

c) We probably ought to lay some groundrules. Maybe something along the lines of: "Talk for however long or short you like, but if you wouldn't say something to the other person's face in a coffeeshop, don't say it here or you get blocked from the jounal and get our boots shoved up a dark place."

I forget anything?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I was thinking it would happen in their LJs. It could very soon become very crowded if it was in just one spot.

And due to the likely uneven numbers, I was thinking you could be paired off more than once. One prejudicee could have many prejudiced, for instance. But the general idea is to hook people up - but I'm thinking it might be easier if we post a master list of all prejudicee and people just pick those they want. Less work and people will be more involved from the start. The prejudicee on the forst day of the week should make a "I represent so and so prejudice. Want to know more?" sort of post where the prejudiced can ask questions and so forth.

Some groundrules about not being rude would probably be good, yes.

[lilbakht.livejournal.com]

(BTW, sorry I've been a bit... RL's been crazy-busy!)

Okay, I'm with that plan. I suppose you're just less paranoid about people's tendency toward poor behavior than I am. :) But the whole experiment requires some trust, really.

Anyway, the prejudicee volunteers you already got were (just to have a starting place):

CHRISTIAN
honorh

ATHIEST
devushkajo
kaltia

LIKER OF FOLK MUSIC
devushkajo

DUTCH
elvea_aure

GERMAN
aervir

CATHOLIC (non-practicing)
aervir

CLASSICAL MUSICIAN
mystefaction

I can add JEW, POLYTHIEST, BISEXUAL, and AMERICAN. There probably are a number of people who'd have multiple prejudicee labels. (In this group, I think we can safely assume no one is prejudiced against GEEK, right?)

[lucius-admirer.livejournal.com]

oooh G/S recs *bookmarks* ♥

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I have a few more recs for it at my website and under my LJ memories (as fanfic recs), if you want some.

[idreamedmusic.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you so much for recommending The Wall Part One and Part Two. I had totally missed it and it's one the most amazing Grissom/CSI fics I've ever read. I haven't read much lately - no time and I've kinda gotten disappointed with CSI fics in general for some reason, but I just devoured this one.
Off to read your other recs!

[misscam.livejournal.com]

:) It truly is a kickass read and shold not be missed. Sometimes, these stories do come along, but sadly, way too rarely.

[idreamedmusic.livejournal.com]

Indeed, but then they tend to stick with us, simply because there are so few of them.

I keep re-reading it and listening to The Wall in between, and it just gets better every time. It's so... perfect.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Very true. There are some LotR stories I still reread years later that are just hitting all the right tangents. Mmmm, excellentfic.

:)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_tallian_/]

I read the comment, and I think I agree with a lot of the discussion here: Framed in a more civilized way, this would have been helpful. I like hearing that people liked what I wrote, but I don't learn much from that. For crying out loud, I just started writing, I know I'm not "a giant of Literature", I *want* good, constructive criticism. Just ... it sinks in better if it's not mean.

You've left a few good constructive notes for me, and they helped a lot. Any future comments you have time for would be wonderful.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yes. I suppose there can be said to be a line between concrit and critisism and critisism and flame. Concrit tries to be helpful and is thus often phrased so, though the tone can still a little off. It can be hard to balance sometimes. Critisism is not as much intended for the author and is more comments on the story, and some people might call it a flame. I in most cases would not, though it would depend. A flame is targetted at the author with the intent to get a rise or be hurtful or some other agenda. And in all this there are shades. Gotta love complications.

:) Good to hear. I know some people find me a little blunt, but the concrit I offer is geared towards being helpful.