Wherein Cam is amused at fic descriptions and ponders OTPs

[misscam]

So, a friend passed on a link and rather amusingly, I found various fics of mine rec'ed and described as "good but too old school, not in line with current producers' vision of D/R. Not shippy enough" and "Definitely of the brand of Doctor/Rose fic coming from the Old Skool, which tends not to see D/R as an OTP by any stretch. Which always makes for very, very *interesting* fic, if unsatisfying and occassionally annoying."

So after I stopped being amused being classified old school when I can count on one hand the number of classic episodes I've seen and having not been in fandom even a year, I got to thinking about OTP. And the thing is, I'm not sure I believe in OTP at all.

Yes, I believe in love. And I believe sometimes you find someone who seems ideally suited for you and it is genuine, heartfelt, I'd-die-for-you kind of love. However, under different circumstances and at a different time in your life when perhaps you never met that first ideal match, I think it's possible to meet someone else you might feel genuine, heartfelt, I'd-die-for-you kind of love for. Humans - or Time Lords, for that matter - adapt and change with the people we love. I don't think there's just one shot at love out there. However, once you found one of them, it could be the right one for the rest of your life and you don't need any others.

Rose meets the Doctor. In doing so, she changes. Later, he changes. I choose to see their relationship as love. But if they had never met, do I think they wouldn't ever have loved anyone else? No, I don't. In fact, I don't think Rose is the first one the Doctor has loved or will love. It doesn't demean their relationship to me, really. Just like it doesn't demean my love for my father that I also love my brother, you know? Love isn't a restricted quality.

Of course, you can have conflict with loving more than one and fidelity tends to be a good idea. Nothing's perfect. Certainly not love, which fucks you over and comes for repeats when it feels like. But it's still fascinating and human and neccessary. And sometimes, when you've found and lost it, the really brilliant thing is that you might get another shot.

So, I don't really believe in the soulmate OTP part. But I do believe in love. Quite a lot, actually.

Maybe that makes me another sort of old school.

Comments

[canadian-kazz.livejournal.com]

I'm compelled to agree with you. I also believe in love, but I'm not dead-set on the idea that there is only one soulmate for each of us. Loves come and go, but they never really leave you. You will always remember them. Rose and the Doctor will never froget each other, but ultimately thay will both move on. The Doctor will find more companions and Rose will find new loves. Prehaps she may even get back with Mickey. He certainly still seems interested in her.

So prehaps I'll join you on that old school bus. ;)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Dunno if Mickey will be right for her, though. He will always be the guy she left for the Doctor for. On the other hand, he might also be the guy who understands. So who knows, really.

Plenty of space on the bus - I'm service ice cream on the road, so hop in. ;)

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

The idea of soulmates has to be one of my most hated concepts. Seriously. And I am not fond of OTPs either - there are pairings I like, and those I like less. And that's it.

...Which is why when I say "lulz shippers!" what I always mean is "lulz OTPers!" I just don't see the point of OTPs.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Heh. I tend to take shippers more as people with a preference for a certain pairing. Which is why I'll call myself a shipper easily enough. I do have my preferences, oh yes.

[aervir.livejournal.com]

I might be mean, but I do wonder what this person you link to, with her strange view on relationships and TRUE ETERNAL DEEP ABIDING LOVE, will make of episodes like The Girl in the Fireplace or the mortgage scene in The Impossible Planet once she watches season 2...

And there are some people in real life, who meet someone, fall in love, get together and have a predominantly happy relationship for the next 40 years. Wonderful for them!

But to project a similar ideal onto a fictional relationship where one partner is, um, 900, sometimes a bit fucked up, and has the attention span of my little nephew on bad days, while the other one is 19 and sometimes rather immature....? Uh-oh. Um, no.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*shrugs* Things can look very differently if you just tilt your head a bit. That's perspective and interpretation for you.

30 years for my parents ;) But yeah, you should always consider circumstances at least when drawing your conclusions on a relationship. Some do overcome huge obstacles and pull through when you were sure they'd never manage, but a lot fall by the wayside as well.

[mahala.livejournal.com]

However, once you found one of them, it could be the right one for the rest of your life and you don't need any others.

Don't know that I believe in soulmates, if only for the simple reason that even when a person is blindingly in love, they still need others. One of the worst tragedies to see is a young couple so smitten with one another that they ignore the rest of their friends and fail to make new ones. When the chemical high wears off -- and even for the deepest, 'soulmate' love it will, if for no other reason than the aging of bodies -- they are alone.

And I'm not just talking about fraternal love. Happily married couples still get crushes on movie stars or even 'real people'. It's just a human trait. Fidelity is all about how you handle the attraction, because it will happen.

Yeah, yeah, I know, this is fiction, and silly things like organic chemistry shouldn't get involved. I guess I have a bit of trouble suspending my disbelief.

But yeah, finally getting around to the point here, I agree with your assessment.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Humans are social creatures, yeah. We go in packs, even if we partner up as well. So yeah, agree with you that something beyond the love of your life is needed. If not while the relationship works brilliantly, at least when you hit trouble.

[belegcuthalion.livejournal.com]

My dear, tat's the kind of old school I can definetely live with... and one of the things that annoys me more and more concerning OTP's in the LOTR-fandom. I understand pretty well that someone falls in love with a pairing, but that you create wanks and animosities towards people who have other ideas. And love is flexible... thank God.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Oh man, I had enough of that in CSI fandom. Shipper wars left and right. It gets very exhausting and just feels restrictive. Ugh.

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

Too 'old skool'? ::dies laughing:: Yep, cause those old skool writers always had the Doctor & his companions fucking like bunnies. /sarcasm

And anyway, Rusty knows that the Doctor's OTP is Romana. ;)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Now there would be a raunchy show.

Not true! The Doctor's OTP is the TARDIS! You're all blind and silly if you don't see that, like. /sarcasm

[anitchka.livejournal.com]

I'm confused as to why she's rec'ing fics left and right, and then saying, "Oh, look at this! Except it sucks because of A, B, and C." I generally rec fic that I ... don't think is sucky.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Well, you can like fics you still have some issues with. But yeah, made me scratch my head a bit. It's not what I'd normally start saying about a fic I might want others to read.

Ah well.

[belegcuthalion.livejournal.com]

My dear, tat's the kind of old school I can definetely live with... and one of the things that annoys me more and more concerning OTP's in the LOTR-fandom. I understand pretty well that someone falls in love with a pairing, but that you create wanks and animosities towards people who have other ideas is sad and sometimes even frightening because it becomes increasingly bizzare. And love is flexible... thank God.

Sorry for the comment-makeover - it is so hot over here that I have great difficulties to concentrate. Thus some sentences of mine are meandering into the distance these days...

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

Not shippy enough? WTFWTFWTF???

There are people who believe that Perfect Love is a perfect shield against sorrow, loss, change, and anger. Avoid such people; most especially avoid falling in love with them. For one day, they will discover that even True Love doesn't do much when you have a migraine headache and have just lost their job, and they will question the nature of their love instead of saying a few choice words. I have true love. It's hard work. It doesn't keep away pain or anger or old age; it simply makes it easier to cope with them when they come.

You don't have to be Old Skool to know the Doctor isn't emotionally monogamous -- what, precisely, were these people thinking during "School Reunion" and "Girl In The Fireplace"? I'll tell you what they were thinking. They were thinking La La La This Isn't Happening.

My mother once said to me that I was romantic but not sentimental. I think that describes you, too.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Heh, perhaps. I certainly don't believe in fairytales and happily ever after. If you're lucky, I think you can get mostly happy most of the time. That's my aim, anyway.

But there's always going to be some shit happening, and it helps to keep your eyes open if you want to manage through.

[yattara.livejournal.com]

Huh, that more or less sums up my latest thoughts about love. The guy I'm with is a Great Love, not the Great Love, of my life. I don't really think there's only one person for you out there: what if you miss that one? It feels so restrictive.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah - not to mention, finding just one in the billions of people on this planet? Wouldn't be easy.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

OK, first of all: "Old Skool"???? She must not have actually run into anyone who's actually Old Skool if she thinks that.

Secondly, "not in line with the producer's vision"? What crack is she smoking? Or what alternate universe is she from?

Thirdly, although I am all over the Doctor/Rose (or Doctor/Rose/Jack) like white on rice, I've come to the conclusion that I do not really believe in OTP - at least not the way she seems to mean it. I mean, I tend to prefer not to read the Doctor with anyone but Rose, and I absolutely prefer fics where the ending is happy (but won't necessarily stay that way), but that's my preference. It doesn't mean that I think she's the only one he'll ever love forever and always. *facepalm* The romantic part of me, admittedly, does wish that were so, but I'm too realistic to go with that notion even in fiction. In fact, that sort of drippy soppyness usually makes me roll my eyes and hit the back button.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Preference is the key word, I think. It's just like some find Shakespeare brilliant and some want to throw books at him. All preference ;)

I read drippy soppyness in doses sometimes, but it's not the kind of stories that make me think and I reread, admitedly.

[colorstoobright.livejournal.com]

Um, WHAT. 'Not shippy enough'? Whatever.

I'm a romantic at heart and truly believe in soulmates, but i think people are much too impatient and live by emotions way too much to really wait or find or are willing to hold on sometimes to that one person.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Given how much people are different, it wouldn't be that strange that there's different kinds of love going around as well. Some people might find new loves more easily than others, others are more maters for life regardless.

[daera23.livejournal.com]

I have a theory on the reviewer. She's young.

In fandoms, there seem to be two crowds of writers - the teens and early college gals. And the ones who are in their mid-twenties, thirties and beyond. Now, I'm not saying the teens can't write good fic - I've read some fabulous fic some younger writers. But I think as an overall group they are like Rose, and they haven't lost their idealism yet. Hence the "not shippy enough" - they haven't learned the tease of restraint.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

There's one problem with that theory - namely, that an awful lot of the really batshit shippers seem to be women in their thirties or so. It freaked me out, to start with, because I originally agreed with what you had to say, but it's gotten to the point where it's starting to feel inevitable.

Of course, I haven't the faintest idea why this is so, it's just something I have noted based on my personal experience across a couplf of fandoms.

[rhipowered.livejournal.com]

I concur. Unfortunately, I'm angry enough at something else to spit nails right now, so I can't come up with anything coherent. But this is how I see the ship. Yes.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

That sounds omnious.

[fannishnonsense]

I agree. The Doctor and Rose are clearly in love. I would even call it a "big love." It's certainly the kind of love that changes both of them in some fundamental way. But I certainly hope its not the only love either of them ever has! Imagine the Doctor spending all his remaining centuries pining for his One True Love! That's just depressing.

I don't think Rose would get back together with Mickey though. I hope she finds someone new and fantastic to have a life with. Besides, Mickey's got Jake!

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is. I'd like to see them longer together on some level, but I wouldn't wish them to be miserable ever after. Don't think they'd wish it on each other, quite frankly.

[mickat24.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's quite exactly how I feel, myself. I believe in love, in Grand Love, even; but I believe that love takes work and time and effort and pain and guts, and that, given the right time and circumstances, and chemistry and willingness, of course, there can be more than just One True Love for every person. I don't believe in soulmates in that sense, either. I do believe that a person can be disposed to fall in love with one person more easily than another, but not that he/she can only, and will only, love that one person.

And no, certainly, nothing is perfect. But, unfortunately, society builds us up to the idea of marriage and happily-ever-after love, when real life is not like that at all, unfortunately. Marriage is not like that, love itself isn't even like that (it maybe be for a little while, but real life intervenes in short order), and happily-ever-after takes a whole lot of work.

And I certainly do believe in second chances. I even believe that Rose and Mickey have a shot together now; Mickey's changed into the sort of man who is brave enough to be able to compete with the Doctor, and what's more, he has shared in those experiences with her and can understand her where so few people can.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

And no, certainly, nothing is perfect. But, unfortunately, society builds us up to the idea of marriage and happily-ever-after love, when real life is not like that at all, unfortunately.

I think you're very right there - which might be why many marriages fall apart. People feel they don't live up to what is advertised or they expect to get it more easily.

Second chances are nice.

[honorh.livejournal.com]

I'm with you. My sister Megan and her husband, for instance--they're perfect for each other, or at least as perfect as two humans can get. However, if they'd met ten years earlier, they wouldn't have been. They'd have been at such different places emotionally and spiritually that even if they'd still had the same chemistry, they wouldn't have been compatible. It's just by the fact that neither of them found someone who was compatible with them at that stage that they remained available for each other to find when they did fall in love.

[kittycatness.livejournal.com]

Certainly not love, which fucks you over and comes for repeats when it feels like.

So that's what that was. I was wondering why I felt screwed over.

I think that the love extends to real life. And this is one of the best pieces (I guess it would be called) on love and OTP and life and everything.


♥

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

Believe in soulmates, I do. I just believe that you can have more than one. XD

[tessavance.livejournal.com]

"Not shippy enough"
When she recovers from that saccharine-induced coma she will come to realise what the old-schoolers have known all along** - the only OTP is the current OTP, and the Doctor is just an intergalactic slut!boi. ;)

(** except for those whose heads explode at suggestion that the Doctor might do that perverted nasty S.E.X. thing.)

[ghost2.livejournal.com]

Eh, not thinking a story is good on the basis of characterization, quality of plot, grammar, and the like is one thing. But it seems like this individual is only ranking stuff based on how well it adheres to her narrow little version of how things should be. "Not shippy enough"--give me a friggin' break. I wonder, would she suffer a meltdown if I linked her to some Five/Turlough or Rose/Sarah Jane fic?

And the dissing of Old School viewers? Damn annoying. Of course, this person actually stated that she watches the show more for the relationships than for the adventures--which gets a WTF? from me, as what we have here is a plot-driven show--so maybe she'll quit watching now. *one can only hope*

[aurelei.livejournal.com]

I agree with you totally - I've often driven my friends crazy with my long discussions-with-myself on love and soulmates, and you've managed to capture exactly what I mean.
And if anyone disagreed, I think they might just be swayed by that. :P You just write that well.

[miladyhawke.livejournal.com]

Whoops. N00b done stepped in it ;)

I was really surprised to see that folks had found all the comments, which is very unfortunate. All of that was simply me leaving myself bookmarks and my initial thoughts for the purpose of coming back later and putting together a proper rec list with proper reviews (in which I do not intend to include aspects I didn't care for, since that would be counter-productive). Apparently I should have screened all that from the start, but it honestly did not occur to me that random folks would go back aways to a fairly buried post and find all that, since mostly I'm under the radar and don't get a lot of attention. Lesson for the future, I guess. Oh well. Spilt milk and all that.

So far as what I said about being less than enchanted with certain views in some of your fics, well, that was never meant to be seen (as said, not going to end up in the formal review), and it's just my personal taste, or rather, how I was feeling that night - apparently I was in the mood for something a bit different. But normally I love a bunch of different genres (but not fluff! Not a fan of fluff!), including darkfic, and fics with imperfect relationships. Definitely not every fic needs to conform to my views on D/R, and even though it's my OTP, I'll try anything fandom has to offer; I think I'm using the term "OTP" a bit differently than Who fandom - it's always takes a while to feel out a new fandom. By OTP, I mean that it's my favorite pairing, probably always will be, I think it's true love, but I don't see it as something that's exlusionary or Omg!True or that has to deny the validity of other ships (and it's a shame if some people feel that way). Since seeing the second season, I've actually become quite fond of 10/Reinette and have also discovered the joys of Nine/Jabe as well as Doctor/Jack, Doctor/Jack/Rose, Rose/Doctor/OMC, etc (you may have noticed all these already on the recs list), and I'm sure I'll discover new ships to huggle and love, in the old series too, as I'm going back now.

I screened the comments in question, but I left one open here, because I thought it was a pity you missed it. It was an addendum to one of the comments you linked to above: http://miladyhawke.livejournal.com/109255.html?thread=982983#t982983

Sorry about the mess. I'm sorry too that nobody asked me about all this first, as I would have hoped we could have straightened things out. Better late than never though, so that's why I'm here ;)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Oh, I wasn't offended or anything. I've certainly had harsher critisisms of my fics, and by people who generally like me too. But the labels did amuse me muchly - "old school" and "not shippy enough" is not usually what people throw at me. (Had a few of the opposite, though.) There's a first for everything, I guess. And it did spark some interesting discussion on how people define OTP and love which might not have happened otherwise. (And as your comment showed, everyone sees it differently.)

However, this is not a that large fandom, and stuff does get around. I see you manage to find this, after all. Pointed to it even maybe? When posting in public it helps to keep in mind anyone can see, even if not everyone necessarily will. Had a few experiences with that myself, oh yes. So notes for private use on fics is perhaps best not posted in a public post, yeah. For all I know, other authors might've seen them too. It can certainly lead to some hiccups - when making critisisms of fics for the author to see, you do tend to justify them more, whereas you don't when you're just making comments for own benefit. But they can make for amusing reading, at least did for me ;) (I'm sure some of my first impressions of fics would lead to many a WTF from their authors, oh yes.)

I'm afraid I rather have forgotten which stories of mine you were talking about in the first place though, so which the comment you left visible is referring to, I don't know. I think I did see it at the time anyhoo, because it looks familiar. (Think I read it as repeating the annoying bit, I'm afraid.)

Really - I mean, I wasn't offended and this post wasn't motivated by any ill will. I was just amused, but I am frequently am by various things and as habit has it, made a post. I didn't think you did it in ill will or anything, so I saw no point raising any sort of stink in your LJ. You're free to make any sort of remark you like and don't have to justify them - certainly not to me-, so I didn't really see anything to straighten out. (And really, if I come across old school, I am quite impressed with own faking skills.) No trouble on my side of things, at least.