Wherein Cam Does Not Get It

[misscam]

Found via nostalgia_lj:
Free stuff from anti-gay creationists, apparently.

Is it wrong of me to want a book on creationism just so I can give it to my brother and watch him pick it apart? (Seriously, he has A Skill. He's made even Christians trying to convert him have doubts instead.) But I'd rather not have anything from them all the same, really. Ugh. Much too uncomfortable.

But of course, I had to go look at their website. And this church gives me the creeps. "Gays can be cured"? What's next, curing "Norwegianness"? Sure, you can make a choice not to act your sexuality, like being celibate and you can argue that sexuality is also tied to culture, but it is very much about how stuff is wired in your brain. There is much we don't know yet about how and why, because it is a controversial field of study, but that it also occurs in nature (penguins, ducks, sheep, bulls, great apes...) is a plain enough sign that there are biological factors also at play. Which means, yeah, it is a part of who you are.

(As lotus79 reminded me, we don't know just what causes autism, though genetics is suspected and no one's claiming autism is a choice. We still have so, so much to learn about the brain. It's not that weird we still have questions unanswered about something as complex as sexual behaviour.)

In spite of the acceptance that is available, however, the homosexual lifestyle often proves to be a painful and unrewarding way of life, particularly for older gays who are no longer desirable sexually.

Please fucking well back this up with facts or STFU, kthxbai. (Also in Norway, which is one of the more accepting countries around about this, gays and lesbians seem to get married and live happy old lives together quite fine and our society has not collapsed or changed that much at all, really. OMG SHOCKING.) Why is this train of thought still alive? Whyyy?

Then again, I wonder the same about hardcore "the Earth is 6000 years old, honest!" creationism. I mean... Whaaat? Seriously, what? All that effort, all that denying of sceience... Why? It's not like evolution means you can't believe in God, just means you have to consider him a more complex fellow than the Bible might indicate at times. And since the Bible was written by men trying to understand their idea of God 2000 years ago with what they knew about the world then, it's not like that is a great leap. So... Whaaat? (This is why I want a book, so my mind can boggle more. Good exercise. And I'm dying to see a creationist museum for sheer WTF factor.)

And I see they're anti-abortion too. Of course they are.

I realise from my place of atheist Social Democrat, and Norwegian to boot, I am not in great position to get it - but I do not even begin to understand some of this stuff. I Do Not Get It.

And you know, I'm kinda glad I don't at times.

(But boy, does it ever make me appreciate non-hating non-whaaat people of various faiths much more. A hearty hug to you all. Please be sane and loud forever. Yay.)

Comments

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

I was taught creationism in school. It was terrifying, especially looking around an realising everyone else was buying into this shit. (When I put up my hand and said "actually, that's not what the Second Law of Thermodynamics says" the teacher dismissed it by saying well, she didn't understand all that stuff.)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

...! For real? That's... Scary. More than scary. That's not education, that's doctrine.

[loquacis.livejournal.com]

I was taught science by Catholic Jesuits. (Jesuits tend to be highly educated Catholic priests. At least they are in the USA).

They taught the Big Bang theory.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I like them already.

And yeah, I know that about Jesuits. I've actually met a few.

[leila82.livejournal.com]

I'm ridiculously glad that I got out of school before Creationism vs. Evolution became such a hotbed issue - I think my head would have exploded. I love the whole scientific method a little too much to rely on religious interpretations of things.

Speaking of heads exploding, I'd advise against getting a book from that site for that very reason. It would be fun for the first thirty pages, and then you'd want to throw something out the window, either yourself or the book or the person who wrote the book. Go for the Narnia DVD instead, or the Les Mis soundtrack. Less anger inducing.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Some of the "but science is just theories, not proof" ladida makes me plain sad. Way to have failed to understand basic principles of the scientific method. Woe.

This is why I would give it to my brother. Or possibly keep as a curiosity to show friends and family and watch them boggle.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Silly us thinking it might be about love, huh?

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

Here's the scoop. If you admit that homosexuality is innate, then you have to admit that God created people who are homosexual. If you say that homosexuality is a choice, then you don't have to acknowledge people's homosexuality -- they aren't really gay, they're just *pretending* to be gay. They could be straight if they only *tried* hard enough.

If you accept any of the research about homosexuality being innate, then the whole worldview about how you treat homosexuals as being weird and foreign and wrong crumbles, and that's unacceptable.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

But clinging on to that worldview seems so much effort. Not to mention so... well, impossible. I can sort of vaguely see the logic in how you present it, but I don't get it still. Too many hurdles on the way, I suppose.

[aervir.livejournal.com]

I "like" the bit where they say that one of the nurturing factors responsible for homosexuality might be "demonic oppression". I'm not quite sure what they mean by it, but I could go around and ask my gay dormmates or my lesbian friends whether they have encountered any demons lately.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Be sure to mention the telltale signs of horns and tails. *nods sagely*

While at it, see if there's any of those witches about.

[lyricalviolet.livejournal.com]

I work with a woman who's recently grown....quite fundamental in her religious beliefs, mainly because of her "conservative christian" boyfriend. Her latest stance is that all gays are pedophiles. She felt the need to mention this....is our office.

Did I mention that I work at a Broadway Theatre? It's like Gay Mecca! US homosexual men bow to it five times a day! =p

By the same token, we have a Christian, Southern Republican woman on staff who is extremly pro-homosexuals and actually finds the whole "kill all the gays!" stance of conservative Christians and Creationists quite hypocritical. She said if they're bashing others because they're different, then they're not truly being Christians.

So, while closed minded bigots pervade our culture, it's good to know not all Christians are bad apples. Which, I know, is as an unfair generalization as "gays are pedophiles" or "homosexuality is an undesirable sexuality." I was raised Catholic, and now proudly claim agnosticism, mostly from all the hypocrisy and intolerance I found there. That, and I don't feel that huge a need to go sit in a building with a thousand other people for an hour and engage in a bizarre form of aerobics (Stand! Sit! Kneel! Sit! Sand! Kneel!) that ends with distribution of a cracker and repeat monotonous phrases that had lost their meaning.

If that puts me in my own personal handbasket to Hell, so be it. If all the stuff that they say is gonna land is in Hell really is, then Heaven's going to be empty, cuz all my friends are going to be in Hell.

{/wank}

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Her latest stance is that all gays are pedophiles.

Because no heterosexual men never ever abuse little girls. Nooooo. It's all those darn gays.

Ew, now I have to wash my mouth. My deepest sympathy, though, for having to work with her. Because opinions like taht would fairly quickly make me see red.

Plenty of lovely Christians about, just like there are muslims. And gays and Norwegians and Jews and any group that gets generalizations tossed it, really.

I certainly will be, atheist that I am, so I'll save you a spot and we can compare pitchforks.

[sarie-gamgee.livejournal.com]

I was raised Catholic, and was never taught creationism, but then my lessons were taught by rather open-minded priests. I remember we once debated whether God might have been behind the creation of the universe, way before Big Bang, but that was all.

I don't know what hardcore Catholics think over here, but no one denies evolution in public anymore.

Those arguments against homosexuality look familiar, though. Gay marriage was approved a year ago in Spain, and Catholic church and right-wing parties are still trying to prove the country is going to the dogs because of it. Yeah, sure! *rolls eyes*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I don't know what hardcore Catholics think over here, but no one denies evolution in public anymore.

Here either. In Europe, it's not really up for debating. You'd certainly get looked at very, very oddly if you tried to deny evolution.

Gay marriage was approved a year ago in Spain, and Catholic church and right-wing parties are still trying to prove the country is going to the dogs because of it. Yeah, sure! *rolls eyes*

*rolls eyes too* I present to you - Norway. Norway's had gay marriage for over a decade. In that time, our economy has flourished, we've been named best place to live in the world according to the UN five times in a row, our marriage rate has risen and unemployment has steadily fallen. Does that sound like a society gone to the dogs? I also present to you Denmark, Sweden and Finland, who have also had it legalized about the same amount of time and is also very well off. Not a sight of a canine anywhere.

[cheesygirl.livejournal.com]

The way I view those trying to "cure" homosexuality is the same as I view trying to "cure" my shyness and introverted nature. There are ways I can get around my shyness, there are ways I can appear less shy, but in the end, no matter how I might appear to other people, I will always be shy and introverted and it is going against my nature to be anything else. There's not a damn thing wrong with the way I am! Because I live in an extroverted world where "normal" behavior is seen as being opposite of the way I am, it's seen that I have something wrong with me that I have to correct.

I don't make myself feel uncomfortable or bad about myself, other people do. Do I try to convert extroverts into settling down and staying home all the time? Stop socializing all the time, stop talking so much, spend more time alone? No. They are free to live how they want and I want to be free to be the same. I think that should be allowed for everyone as long as they don't try to impart their ways on others against their will.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Good way of putting it. I mean, what you do to be happy as long as it doesn't actually hurt anyone... Life throws enough misery at you if you weren't to add to it. You have to live with yourself more than you have to live with other people, after all.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

My first secondary school was Catholic. And we never got taught creationsism, but were taught evolution even in my very first term there.

As for the other issues of debate, homosexuality tended to vary from teacher to teacher - I mean, the drama teacher was gay (as confirmed by his second cousin, who was a friend of mine), whereas one of my Religion teachers thought all gays should be burnt. And the religon teacher I had teh year after that didn't seem to care either way.

And we used to have huge debates about abortion in class. The Religion teacher would just throw away the lesson plan, and we'd debate it. It was kind of fun, actually.

Disclaimer: Though it was a Catholic school, and had live in priests and all, it was also the school that took kids who'd been expelled from all the other schools in town for bad behaviour. So despite some teachers' personal beliefs, it wasn't what you'd call strict on converting students.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Abortion debates can be quite the minefield, though. In Norway, there's not even a debate, just... accepted. Probably because the only two public anti-abortion priests were quite nutters. Didn't exactly inspire rational debate. I don't think I've ever had a debate with anyone about it until I came online.

As long as teachers don't try to ram personal belief down your throat... Well, it's not like they can stop having them.

[melata-fic.livejournal.com]

Stuff like this just makes my brain leak.

I keep wanting to explain my comment, and I keep failing. *sigh*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I'm assuming this is because you're very far from agreeing with them.

[fannishnonsense]

People like that aren't really interested in religion. They just want power. And they've found that the best way to get power over others is by making sure they're ignorant and hateful. It's the same as the whole anti-immigration furor that's going on over here. Some powerful people decided that the best way to keep people from asking questions was to whip up hatred against a minority group. It doesn't really matter to them if it's Latinos or Blacks or gays or women. They just need to keep people hating each other so they don't notice what their "leaders" are doing.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Ah, true and tried method, fear and hysteria and percieved enemies, real of invented. See "Hitler, overgit". Or "Mao, foregit".

It really is quite scary how often humans will fall for such things. Sometimes, we are frightened sheep.

[regala-electra.livejournal.com]

You know a lot of is a weird cultural trend in America to glory in being ignorant. It's why The Colbert Report is brilliant satire, because it's very true. Our media personnel are figureheads who spout generalized 'religious' and 'pro-America' slogans and say it in such childish absolutes that you can't get to the actual truth. You operate in Colbert-style truthiness.

"So you think all children should be molested by pedophiles?" is what the obnoxious windbag will screech at the 'liberal' guest/speaker. "Do you think a man should marry his dog if he wants to?"

"Do you want to kill all babies?"

And no one steps in with the facts, because we don't learn the facts. Like the abstinence-only sex education. What? Yeah, I'm sure saying "don't do" to kids is going to get them to not do it. So then they start turning it into insane absolutes. "IF you have sex, THEN you will get AIDS. Then you will a whore (because girls are the ones who are responsible for stopping sex, don't ya know). Then no one will want someone 'used up.'"

Lovely.

One of the fews times I watched C-SPAN, I caught the debate over stem-cell research (when it was first brought to Congress, I was in college at the time). It floored me. These were grownups, men who were no younger that mid-forties, and women around the same age, several men who were old enough to be the same age as my grandfather, and they were framing their debate like a Catholic religion school class. Talking about the soul and God and I just sputtered out, "Where the hell are the facts?"

Who needs facts when you can have simple beliefs and refuse to use your brain to comprehend even the teeniest bit o' logic?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_lost_iris_/]

The abstinence-only education always boggled my mind. Our teachers were like, "Wait till marriage to have sex!" and it only made me go, "What?" because the way they talked, it was as if that little ring on your finger was going to ward off all possible STD's, including HIV, just because. You know. Getting married before having sex is the good girl thing to do, and good girls don't get STDs? *shrug*

[siraj.livejournal.com]

*groans* the stupid is drilling into my brain... I'm getting to the point of wanting to smack with a warhammer first and then berate them for being idiots.

*Goes to pray to Anubis for sanity and to find out just how he did his smiting back in the day, so he can continue the tradition, starting with all the religious morons*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*pats* I'm sure Odin and Thor would be keen on helping out as well.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_lost_iris_/]

-_-;; It's always been rather mind-boggling to me how some people act like they know exactly what God/Allah/whatever wants, as if they themselves were it. And truthfully, I think that's precisely the case. People change God to fit their views, and then shove it down others' throats, which is primarily the reason I am agnostic.

So far, the image of God I have is a notion or an idea created by humans to comfort and justify themselves, because there are just far too many selfish human-centered "coincidences" for me to think that God might be real. Why would He be a He? Why not a She, or even better, a completely separate pronoun just for God. Why is it that humans are the only species worth judging? Why does it seem like God's values lean toward human societal views, such as no stealing, killing, and (in this case) homosexuality?

To me God sounds like the easiest way to keep people under lots of power, a power that no physical being can have over large masses of people. God goes deeply into people's psyche. There's no possible way to watch what everybody is doing all the time, which is why God supposedly knows all your sins when no normal human being can. There are tons more examples I have but I'm not even sure if I'm being coherent, since I'm just sort of ranting. Long story short: God sounds fishy, I don't trust the people that made God up, and if there WAS a God, truly surly fo' real etc., I think that there would be a hell lot less confusion than there is now.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

People change God to fit their views

Think you're right on the money there. Only way I can understand Fred Phelps' hateful faith, anyway, because it bears no resemblance to the stuff I found in the Bible. People like that do their faith a huge disservice, that's for sure. And though I don't believe in a God, if I am wrong, and there is such a thing, I'm pretty convinced it (probably wouldn't fit our idea of gender, either) would not be very impressed by some of the things done in its name.

Douglas Adams said it interestingly once: God used to be the best explanation we’d got, and we’ve now got vastly better ones. God is no longer an explanation of anything, but has instead become something that would itself need an insurmountable amount of explaining.

Part of the reason I'm atheist, that.

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

I know a friend of a friend who gets free stuff from fundie whackjobs and sells'em on ebay. He's apparently made hundreds. XD

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Dear oh dear.

Well, if I got any money out of them, I would donate it to organisations promoting tolerance or projects that spread sex ed for teenagers. It would be fitting.

[shandydann]

Well with the old testament there's evidence that it was a political document combining the beliefs of two separate factions in Judea anyway.

Your brother reminds me of my dad, once in the middle of the Aberdonian winter, (admittedly not as cold as the Norwegian winter but still rather nippy,) two mormans came to our door to try and convert us. My dad's an athiest, which he dually admitted to them straight away at the door. Despite not being invited in, they debated quite abit about Life, the Universe and Everything. With my dad pointing out politely that he was unconvinced of their arguments. Still it shows dedication debating outside someone's door in midwinter for two hours. Funnily enough they never came back.

I think it's how you are brought up. My mums catholic, yet it was my dad that took me to Sunday school and explained about the stories in the bible. It's because of what he taught me about the world that I am fairly liberal and non religous. Kudos to your parents for being so progressive Cam.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I don't think my parents ever really talked to me about religion, actually. I mean, I know they're not Christian as they are members of a society known as "Human Ethics" in Norway, which is basically a place for atheist. But they never tried to change my mind when I wanted to do Sunday school (because I had friends doing it - I was like 7) or said anything when I went to Bible study. (I was curious, friends went there, blah.) So, I made up my own mind. Yay for them, I suppose.

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

I actually used to try to be one of the "young earth creationists," about ten years ago when I also thought I was religious and non-Christians went to hell and that I would be Republican if I were involved in politics. Then I realized that I was only ever "creationist" because my creationist relatives and the various Christian propaganda I kept getting told me to be, and that if believing that and denying evolution was making my brain hurt (fact is, I've always liked the scientific method too much to just accept "this book says so" as sufficient reasoning), why bother?

But having been there, I kind of can't help but wonder how many anti-evolutionists and homophobes are so loud because somewhere inside them, they sympathize with the other side (or at least can look at it and agree with some points and wonder about some points about their own beliefs), and are afraid of what their peers and relatives will think if they dare stray the slightest bit from their faith. (Kind of like how when somebody is loudly homophobic like Fred Phelps, I can't help but wonder if they themselves are in the closet and trying to draw attention away from the fact.)

Though that's an argument I'd hesitate to actually throw at anyone (and wouldn't believe is the whole issue), seeing how easy it would be for the "other side" to believe something similar about "my side"--fond memories of MST'ing a very vicious (but kind of funny for the "look who's talking!" factor of it) anti-evolution "expose" in which the writer claimed evolutionists believe what they do because they see Christianity's truth and fear God's wrath and basically deal with it by putting their fingers and their ears and singing "lalalala!"

But I have a hard time getting a lot of it anymore myself... like how "marriage is sacred" is supposed to mean a secular government is supposed to protect it only for one kind of person, or how "think of the children!" people never back their damn claims up when they go parading on TV with their "defense of marriage" arguments (especially fun considering the American Psychological Association, among other places, says same sex marriage would be fine for children!), or how "fostering debate in science class" means it's okay to disguise your religion and teach it in school.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it can be a very... Two-edged sword, that sort of argument. But the human mind being what it is, it's certainly a possibility as part of the cause. How much people believe just because they've never really challenged it is another thing - and I'm not just talking about religion-related issues here.

Obviously, with society's issues with homosexuality still, kids being raised by same sex parents can have issues - but that's to do with intolerance. I don't think there's anything inherently dangerous about being raised by two parents of the same sex anymore than it's dangerous to be raised by people in general. It's never a perfect arrangement, after all.

[wintergreen126.livejournal.com]

ditto. all of that. i wholly believe that people have the right to say or think whatever they want, the first amendment, yadda, yadda. but i hate it when others try to convince you that your beliefs, or lack there of, are wrong and they try to convert you. argh. i hate that. i love hearing differing ideas and views from various beliefs, but once they become hateful or proselytizing, it's...so frustrating. i know that if the same happened to them, they would be highly offended, but they have no problem doing it to others. good riddance.

and as for creationism, i just have to quote a washington post columnist on this. he thinks that God would "be smart enough to create the universe without, as Genesis alleges, violating His own observable laws of conservation of matter and energy in a six-day construction binge." i love that.

and i loved your thoughts. have a great day :o)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yeah, I rather think an all-powerful God would have the smarts for that.

Ah, First Amendment... We have it slightly different here in Norway - obviously, our Constitution being our own, but one of the things our version doesn't protect is incitement to hatred. That includes inciting hatred against different sexuality, different races, different religions... Fred Phelps would get the law after him in Norway. Just like some Nazi groups do. I guess it raises the issue of to what point should free speech be protected - beyond everything else or not?

[a-quick-one.livejournal.com]

Gays are horrible and perverted and should be put to death!!!

(I just spent about $3500 on their site)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Ooooh dear.

[sparklechick268.livejournal.com]

WTF?!
This seems to be everywhere!
They had a show on yesterday lunchtime on TV about these conversion centres in America where they convert people to become hetrosexual. I saw about 2 minutes before I turned it off in disgust. They were going on about it like being gay is a horrible sickness that must be cured if you are to live a fruitful life. And the techniques they use to change the sexual orientation of people... Teh stupid! It burns!!! People are as they were born, and everyone should be accepted for who they are.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

It's quite sickening, yeah. I mean, they send kids to these things. Talk about fucking up their minds. Cripes.

*pats Europe a little* If we ever get one of those things, I will truly vomit.

[--kali--.livejournal.com]

More schools in the US are teach Creationism than Evolution. That is truly frightening. They're trying to bring it in to catholic schools and private schools over here too. :/

[misscam.livejournal.com]

... I think my head imploded.

Doesn't anyone care hardcore creationism goes with holes big enough to drive Norway through?