The 'ship-measuing contest'?

[misscam]

How much do contest play into shipping, I wonder?

Now, I have my ships too, and I'm certainly not saying that's what it's basically about, but... Take that ever lovely CSI fandom. Ever since Grissom and Sara shagged it up (implied) in the season six finale, fandom wanked its little socks off. And among the other fun stuff, I did notice trends of what I call 'ship-measuring contest'. Frequent arguments* included:

- Our ship has more chemistry
- Our ship is less forced
- Our ship is more Canon
- Our ship is more liked by the actors
- Our ship has better writers
- Our ship has more mature shippers
- Our ship has better fics

* Some of these claims might be true, given the value of true.

The point of all these arguments seem to be to elevate that particular ship to above the others, to be the better one. And it's not just that fandom, either. I've seen arguments on which is "the higher sort of love" in Harry Potter. I've seen Doctor/Rose shippers and Other Shippers both feel hated on in Doctor Who fandom. (Both might be true, depending on your perspective. Also, I divide it into that simple because of numbers. There are heaps of little inter-plays at work, between Nine/Rose and Ten/Rose too.) And that's not taking into account all the stuff going on within a ship - hierarchy and BNFs and what-not.

Course, people are generally into ships because they like them and most shippers are sane and lovely and I give them chocolate, but I wonder how much this behaviour just feels a bit natural after a while. After all, opposing shippers often diss your ship, so you try to lift your up. No one likes something they like being attacked. It's natural to want to defend or to feel better about your particular like, maybe even feel it is special. But it does feel like it sometimes goes a bit far. That humans have a certain need to feel superior to other humans at times and this comes to play in fandom in not always attractive ways.

Maybe I'm totally off. Tell me? Have you noticed anything like it?

Meanwhile, here are two cats who clearly disagree on ship.

Comments

[dreams-of-him.livejournal.com]

Great kitties! No creature on earth does disdain quite like the feline. As I have been looked down upon by some of the best, I applaud your capturing that 'look.' :)

I confess to being a little confused by the energy some people put into their ships. It seems...peculiar...to me.

As a refugee from Star Trek: The Original Series, I have been looked at like I was crazy from the tender age of 12. I learned early that people either get it or they don't. If they don't, give it up lest you appear even more deranged to the non-believer. ;)

I think certain ships are like certain shows. For example, I know people who are just wild for show X. I'm not. I don't spend time trying proselitizing about my show. I just file that away and we talk about something else.

I ship Grissom/Sara. Other ships don't appeal to me. I have to admit I find vehement arguments against to be a little bizarre...after all, this is not a poplarity contest. This is a TV show about fictional characters. Why should I care what other people ship? I hope they enjoy theirs as I do mine. Moving on....

I confess I read your wank posts primarily because I find it amusing that people actually say these things in public and with such earnestness. I find all of it faintly foolish and a little sad. And funny. Very very funny. :)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Not my pic, just found it online. But it seemed the perfect illustration to what I was saying, heh.

I don't care that much what people ship myself - as witnessed by my flist, which got all sorts of folks - but I do know I can get defensive if I feel my ship is being put down. And yet I still boggle at how far people can take that - hello, CSI wankimplosion.

Funny is better ;) Helps to keep the brain sane and all.

[wendymr.livejournal.com]

I do know I can get defensive if I feel my ship is being put down.

Yes, that's absolutely true of me, too. It's a new experience for me to be in a fandom where there are rival ships, so that may be part of it - in my previous fandom there was only one ship and you either wrote about them getting together or about them post-marriage. So when I joined a Doctor/Rose shipping community it was a bit of a shock to realise, after a while, that... hey, there are people here who don't ship them?

That's far less of a surprise now, of course. And I think I'm far more dismayed by the batshit shippers than by dislikers of the ship or of Rose - but I still have to slap down that initial instinct to want to defend my ship when I read something that's critical of it. Maybe it's just a natural instinct, though.

All I know is, if I ever even get on the fringes of being batshit about it, I hope a saner friend will yank me back behind the barricades of sanity again ;)

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

So when I joined a Doctor/Rose shipping community it was a bit of a shock to realise, after a while, that... hey, there are people here who don't ship them?

Hee! It is (or at least was) kind of the default ship so I can understand the assumption. There's no real competition till Jack showed up and he'd share.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

It is.

Attack Norway and watch me flail.

[sidewalk-doctor.livejournal.com]

That's far less of a surprise now, of course. And I think I'm far more dismayed by the batshit shippers than by dislikers of the ship or of Rose

OK, I only came into online fandom early in S2, but I have not seen these batshit shippers of which everyone speaks. Where are they? I'm genuinely curious and hate to think I missed out on some good lulz.

[wendymr.livejournal.com]

Oh, how about people who can't write a Rose/Doctor fic without either seriously bashing other characters (Mickey, Reinette, for example - even if I don't much care for Reinette myself, I hate bashing-fic), or having the Doctor never, ever ever have loved anyone in his life before Rose came along? I call that batshit because it's both unnecessary and untrue. There've been a couple of examples of Martha-hate about, a bit unfair since we haven't even seen the character yet. Though I was amused to note recently that when someone posted a short video of Martha and the Doctor holding hands it got very little reaction - none of the 'how dare she take Rose's place' stuff. Don't get me wrong: I'm a Rose/Doctor shipper and, unless I completely fall for Martha, will carry on being a Rose/Doctor shipper, but the show's moving on and that's that.

I think we all have different thresholds for what we'll classify as 'batshit', of course. There's stuff that might leave me rolling my eyes but others won't bat an eyelid at, and stuff that I think is okay but others will be tearing their hair ;)

[wendymr.livejournal.com]

But, yeah, to add - so far I haven't seen anything even a fraction as insane as that Snape-love website Cam linked to a few days ago...

[sidewalk-doctor.livejournal.com]

OMG, that wank was legendary. That was the most fun I'd had in ages.

Oh, how about people who can't write a Rose/Doctor fic without either seriously bashing other characters (Mickey, Reinette, for example - even if I don't much care for Reinette myself, I hate bashing-fic), or having the Doctor never, ever ever have loved anyone in his life before Rose came along?

Well, I've always had an issue with character bashing in fics, and I agree on that second point. I guess I don't read a whole lot of fic (I'm active in 3 fandoms and don't have a lot of time :p) so I didn't see those. I was thinking batshit on the scale of those Snapefen, or the more... erm, dedicated Harmonians. Like the ones comparing themselves to slaves and aborted fetuses and whatnot. *wishes I had that civil war icon, but I shall settle for a mocking DW one instead*

[wendymr.livejournal.com]

Well, I've only ever been in one fandom before DW and it's one where there's only one ship and basically everyone ships it. So I'd never encountered shipwars or even non-shippers before coming to DW. So, yeah, my threshold for teh batshit will be lower than those who've been exposed to far worse elsewhere.

Also, Rose/Doctor shipper I am, but I prefer a 'live and let live' attitude, so if someone prefers to ship the Doctor with Romana or Jabe or Martha or with no-one at all it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I suppose when I see people throwing toys out of the pram, as I have on occasion when faced with someone who doesn't share their ship, it makes me roll my eyes.

But, yeah, really the worst of it is the batshit fic, either the hate-fic or the Doctor reduced to a blubbering teenager in love instead of a 900-year-old alien, or Rose behaving like a spoilt brat (or a perfect little angel who never does anything wrong) instead of the normal, flawed young woman she is. I'm sure there's other stuff that's had me rolling my eyes, but I've been so up to my eyes in coursework and ficathon lately that I simply can't remember it. *sigh* I want my brain back.

[wendymr.livejournal.com]

I suppose when I see people throwing toys out of the pram, as I have on occasion when faced with someone who doesn't share their ship, it makes me roll my eyes.

...as I have SEEN on occasion... *sigh* I'm an idiot.

[sidewalk-doctor.livejournal.com]

I generally have a "live and let live" attitude, too, but it's like misscam said... if someone is hatin' on something you like, it's a natural tendency to want to defend it. I'm not one to seek out conflict, but if someone replies to something I've said or brings it to me somehow, then I don't back down.

And as for the batshit part, i guess I just have a different standard of batshit. The stuff you described is IMO not batshit so much as just really bad fic. I've seen some really terrible OOC fic in other fandoms, but the authors themselves aren't wanky or crazy. I have come from the Buffy and HP fandoms which are pretty much the gold standard of batshititude, so I guess I was looking for the kind of grade A choice crazy you find there. I'm talking about shippers who are aggressive, obnoxious, flame anyone who doesn't share their opinion, create elaborate conspiracy theories regarding why they're oppressed, yada yada. The worst shippy behavior I've seen in DW is bad OOC fic and teeny-bopping, which is indeed annoying, but I wouldn't really call it crazy. But until recently I mostly lurked, so maybe I just didn't get involved enough to see the crazy lurking beneath a deceptively calm veneer.

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

Honestly, my 'ships, such as they are, have to do with what I find sexy, and nothing else. Obviously, what I find sexy is not going to be the standard of what everybody else finds sexy. ::shrug::

Everybody's going to find what's sexy to them, but if they're finding themselves spending time ranting about how people who like XX/YY ship are [insert insulting term here], then they need to step away from the crack pipe.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

It does seem to happen to sane people too, you know? Which makes me wonder how much it just gets into your system or something.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I am told taht House/Cuddy is For Mature People, as opposed to the Terrible Teenaged Fangirls of House/Cameron. As a member of the comms of both, that makes me 19-and-a-half. I think.

We ship what we like and then justify it. I have long believed this. Everyone jumps on a chemistry they see, which is pretty subjective anyway, and then people go "BUT WHY?!" and we have to make shit up.

Rarely does it rely on Facts, like how My DW OTP has more Nimons in it than yours, and yours has more werewolves. Clearly that means something and proves which is objectively More Betterer.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Heard the same about Grissom/Catherine and Grissom/Sara. Generalizations, wheee.

Nothing is as subjective as taste, yes.

My ship has Norway. That makes it BESTEST EVER EVER.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

What's the Mature and Childish Ships in DW fandom? Do we have to have those? Can't we all just be silly and songfic-based?

Mine does not have Norway! WOE! It has... er... two of mine have France, which... means... something. DOCTOR/JAMIE HAS SCOTLAND IS AND IS THUS BESTESTEST!

[misscam.livejournal.com]

NORWAY USED TO PILLAGE AND PLUNDER SCOTLAND, HAH!

Which means Doctor&Rose come sailing in to have orgies with Doctor&Jamie. Errr. Possibly.

Seven/Ace is for teenagers and Four/Romana for adults.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Doctor/Rose/Doctor/Jamie!! And Doctor/Jamie has like museums about the time it Did It with Doctor/Rose!


Noes Seven/Ace is for SICK WRONG PEOPLE. And is hardcore. So more hardcore than Four/Romana which is frankly one of the fluffiest ships the fandom could have. Unless people wrote about they blatantly go off each other in S18 and she has to move to another universe to get the hell away from him because omg he's SUCH A WANKER and she's taking the dog kthnxbai.

...I wish Romana and Rose were in the same other universe so that they could shag bitch about the Doctor together and then have adventures.

[sidewalk-doctor.livejournal.com]

I am told taht House/Cuddy is For Mature People, as opposed to the Terrible Teenaged Fangirls of House/Cameron.

I ship House/Cuddy, so clearly it is not the ship for Mature People. :p

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I ship them with the intellectual high-mindedness of a four-year-old on a sugar-high.

*giggles* They're so doin' it!

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

It happens all the time. The thing I like cannot just make me happy. It has to be The Best Thing Ever. See: arguments about The Best Rock Band Of All Time.

However, Christopher Eccleston is inarguably The Best Doctor Ever. So there. ;-)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

You're so wrong.

HARTNELL FOR THE WIN.

[ladyofspain.livejournal.com]

No, you're right on. I tend to stick to one pairing per fandom, and can get a little defensive (mostly when someone shoots off examples of crappy characterization as evidence of Why Their Pairing Is Better), but that people get so malicious over something which is basically made up is really irritating. Mostly it comes down to popularity, and arguing over basic preferences just seems like a waste of time.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

It is a bit like arguing over ice cream flavour at times, yes.

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

*guiltily* Wrt the ship dick-measuring contests: I do that in my head, until the um other voices that inhabit my skullspace punt me into the wall. It's a personal ego thing, I gather. If my ship is the right ship, then I'm better/smarter than you because I can see it. It's very, very stupid.

Or, as another possible neurosis, you have the idea of writing and truth. This one's mine, so I'm damn familiar with it, even if I completely suck at explaining it. If you're obsessed with words and lit and writing in general, insteada just fandom, it's fairly possible that sooner or later you'll end up being obsessed with Truths. Basically if you're one of those people then you want to ship the ship that would most probably happen IRL if the characters were real. Cos anything else would be Untrue and therefore BadWrong like woah. So it just doesn't sit easy with you to accept that you ship whatever you like and other people ship whatever they like, because you compulsively need to ship that True pairing. And I'm not using True in the subjective sense, as it's used in OTP, but rather True in the sense of this is what the characters would be. (--I did mention it was a neurosis, right? Right. Just checking.) Which can lead to a lot of things, anyhow, one of which is the need to justify everything you like, not cos you care what other people think, but cos otherwise your brain screams blue murder at you. Therefore, arguments. (The other main result is the insane doubt-of-OTP, where you really do try out every likely pairing and try to see things from everyone's POV, and even when you've "settled" on an OTP you periodically check other pairings to make sure you still think only this particular one works. Yeah. This is why I only have enough skullspace for one fandom at a time.)

SORRY ABOUT THE ESSAYING D:

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Actually, the second paragraph could very well be why there was so much wank after Grissom&Sara essentially became Canon.

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

It...would kinda suck to have your ship sunk if you were neurotic in that way, yes. Which makes me almost pity the antis because I can empathize with'em. But wank is still a bad response--humility would be better, but that's never gonna happen, eh.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I think the Trueness is a bit of why shipwars end up happening? Because it can get to critical mass of shippers believing theirs to be So Very True and the Only Possible In-Character Ship and oh dear wank happens.

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

Like as not, yeah. Which is really stupid, because you can't ever be certain of that. The proper attitude to take is that of mad doubt and constantly attempting to see out of other people's frame of reference. But that's too difficult for most people to do, so they settle for blind certainty. Kinda like religion, actually.

[aervir.livejournal.com]

The only ships I really, truly and fully believe in have got masts, sails, rigging and a variable number of guns.

[atraphoenix.livejournal.com]

*giggles*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

German smartarse.

[aervir.livejournal.com]

Norwegian spoilsport.

*aims broadside at you*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

OHOHOHO!

*rams you with ship of Viking berserkers*

[aervir.livejournal.com]

Bah, your puny little Viking boat is nothing against a proper ship of the line.

*fires*

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

[Here from metafandom. [wave]]

Oh, good grief. [eyeroll] I've always been grateful that my main fandom (LOTRiPS and general RPS) has a whole lot less drama and wankery over pairings than other fandoms ([cough]HP[cough]) and I really hate to see the stupid spreading to newer fandoms.

It seems to me that once people start getting really organized about their favorite pairings, talking about why they're "true" or "canon" or "fluffy" or whatever, dressing them up with team badges and colors and cute little nautical puns (RPS doesn't really use the whole "ship" thing), what you have is a bunch of people wandering around wearing their gang T-shirts and ready for a rumble.

And really, over what? :/ If one person likes to read Harry with Ginny, and someone else likes Harry with Hermione, and some third person likes Harry with Draco, and some fourth person likes Harry with Severus, who the hell cares? I mean, each person reads stories about the pairing they like, OK, that's cool. But why is it skin off of anyone's ass what other people read or write? I seriously don't understand this. How does it hurt Fan A if Fan B prefers reading about a different pairing? Even if one member of fan B's pairing is also a member of Fan A's pairing, so what? Does it make Fan A's favorite stories somehow less enjoyable, that Fan B is reading about Gil boffing Nick instead of Sara? Don't like, don't read -- easy as that.

One of my favorite characters to read and write about is Orlando Bloom. I think he's adorable and he goes wonderfully well with a large variety of other characters. I know other people who don't care for him, and still others who are actively repulsed by him. And guess what? That doesn't make me enjoy reading and writing about him any less, not even by a tiny bit. Everyone's entitled to their own tastes and preferences and they don't affect mine at all. I'm sure the songfic fans don't give a damn that I loathe songfics, I'm sure the Smallville fans who love what's-his-name who plays Lex in the show don't give a damn that I think he's pretty darned ugly, and I'm sure the people who love reading completely plotless pwips don't give a damn that I think they're boring. My opinion doesn't affect anyone else's tastes or enjoyment, and no one else's opinion affects mine.

So what's with all the snarking and sarcasm and hatred and feuding over... fanfic pairings? I don't get it. It makes no sense to me.

And why does anyone care which pairing is more "canon" or whatever? If we just wanted canon then we'd just watch the shows/movies or read the books. We clearly want more than what canon-and-only-canon give us or we wouldn't be here. If I'm enjoying a story about Orlando Bloom and Sean Bean I really don't care whether they're "really" secret lovers or whether they're both straight and shagging their girlfriends as I read -- it's irrelevant. I read fic because I like the fic and anything that's not the fic I'm enjoying reading doesn't matter.

So to all the fans who are fighting over this crap -- break it up, cut with the snarking and go back to reading and writing the stuff you like. The rest of us are really tired of all the dust and shouting. :P

Angie

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's neccesarily on fanfic people clash, but rather in various fora where you might encounter various different shippers. And one might go "I don't see how anyone can ship X & Y at all" and a X/Y shippers find this a bit offensive and posts back and suddenly you get an argument. It can very easily become like gangs, where you have preconcieved ideas about the other gang and blah, blah it becomes a feud. And by the time it's a feud, logic is already lost.

But while your particulary choice of fandom is not about Canon, quite a lot of other fandoms can be. I mean, I've heard Grissom/Sara shippers declare that they wouldn't ship it if they didn't believe it would become Canon. So to many, it is a big deal. No wonder then you get wank if it isn't fulfilled.

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

You know, this might sound harsh, but if the whole pairings-are-all-about-canon meme inherently causes wank then maybe it's something people should work on getting over? :/ Either that or just wait until your series is cancelled or whatever and then work with what you've got, because that's the only point where you're going to know for a fact that this or that is or isn't canon. And even then, hey, they might make a movie!

Seriously, though, I have no problem with people liking this or that pairing because it's canon. If that's what presses their button, that's cool. I do have a problem with people who put down some other pairing for whatever reason, though, and I don't think being able to say "Well, my pairing is canon!" gives anyone a free pass out of the jerkwad club. Being nasty about a character or a pairing is just being nasty no matter how people try to justify it.

Don't like, don't read. But IMO people who make nasty comments about some other pairing or the people who like it are jerks.

So to many, it is a big deal. No wonder then you get wank if it isn't fulfilled.

Unfortunately true. I understand why it happens, yeah. But I still don't like it, or the people who indulge in it. [sigh]

Angie, who wishes some folks would just grow the hell up

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Well, it's a bit like sports at times, innit? I have my favourite football team. I like them very much. I want them to do well. And when they beat other teams, I feel very gleeful about it. Particulary if that team insulted my team. It's just... Human nature, in a way.

And becoming Canon is for some a justification of their favourite, particulary if others have declared it never will become Canon.

That doesn't make it less annoying and wanky or anything, but I do understand where it comes from and I don't think it's neccesarily immaturity at work, because adults sure as heck get involved with national pride or team pride or all these other little who-is-best contests.

[dinpik.livejournal.com]

It's just... Human nature, in a way.


It's the need to know not everyone else is getting all the goodies. Sure, Suzie Q. Fan may have a better job, a better SO, and get more reviews... but her 'ship just got deep-sixed. And all those umpty-thousand word meta posts she wrote on her pairing? So much wasted pixels. Whoohoo!

damn typos

[sidewalk-doctor.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom.

I think that just about covers it. However, let's not forget the "transcendent/eternal/forever" argument. It usually goes something like this: the love between Blah/Blah2 is "a special transcendent bond" or something whereas the love between Blah/Blah3 is lustful/physical/somehow inferior. Although I think you did touch on that in the first paragraph with the "higher sort of love" example. I've seen that argument not only in HP but in the Buffy and Firefly fandoms as well.

Course, people are generally into ships because they like them and most shippers are sane and lovely and I give them chocolate, but I wonder how much this behaviour just feels a bit natural after a while.

There are times I really think the whole of online fandom, even the "sane" people, would look pretty crazy to people who don't go online and aren't in any fandoms. :p

Re: damn typos

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've seen that about. Certainly in HP fandom, as you mentioned. (Harry/Hermoine have a special love, the love that will defeat Voldemort! Harry/Ginny is just lust! Etc.) I haven't poked about Buffy fandom in ages, but now you made me curious how it manifests itself there.

Shipping: A Cross-Fandom Study.... Ah, perhaps one day.

There are times I really think the whole of online fandom, even the "sane" people, would look pretty crazy to people who don't go online and aren't in any fandoms. :p

Now there is a truth. Sanity is sometimes a matter of perception.

Re: damn typos

[sidewalk-doctor.livejournal.com]

In the Buffy fandom, you can pretty much take that sentence you just wrote and substitute "Buffy/Angel" for Harry/Hermione and "Buffy/Spike" or "Angel/Cordelia" for Harry/Ginny and it's pretty much how it was.

Re: damn typos

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I quit watching Buffy around season three, so I missed all that glorious fun. Well, apart from when it appeared on fandom_wank. Spike Wars, hey!

Re: damn typos

[kerosinkanister.livejournal.com]

Yeah you did see that with Harry/Hermione and I kind of wondered what books people were reading. At least in the first five Harry and Ron were closer as boys tend to be and Harry took Hermione for granted. I'm certainly not trying to diminish Harry and Hermione's friendship as they are very good friends but there's nothing transcendent there!

(via metafandom)