Why do you ship - and what sort of fandom troubles can that lead to?

[misscam]

Here's a question for you shippers of various fandom - what's your main attraction to a particular ship? (Non-shippers, your opinions are sought at the end as well.)

Do you think it is...
a) The ship itself, the whole of the two people, with perhaps not so much intrest in them individually? (i.e You adore Rose and the Doctor together, but on their own, you're not as keen.)
b) Really, really liking one person in the ship and feeling the other is the best match, but not really taking so much interest in the other? (i.e You really like Grissom and feel Sara is what he wants and therefore ship it, but you're not that interested in Sara herself.)
c) The people involved are hot and you enjoy the fanfic, but have no interest in it beyond that? (i.e You find House and Wilson together the hottest thing since toasted bread, but you have no particular investement in seeing it on-screen)
d) The idea that it will one day become Canon? (i.e You're sure Jim and Pam will hook it up and you're shipping them in anticipation of it.)
d2) While it will may or may not truly become Canon, it is the ship with the most Canon support/hints. (i.e The Doctor will probably never have an actual admitted girlfriend as companion, but some Doctor/companion dynamics may flirt more with the idea than others.)
e) It's a side-ship - keeps potential rivals of your main OTP out of the way. (i.e You ship Sara and Nick, because that keeps Sara from Grissom and opens the way for your OTP of Grissom/Catherine.)
f) The romance is your main attraction? (i.e Rose leaves, but you just switch to Martha/Doctor instead, because you're really not that fuzzy on the particulars of the ship as long as there is one.)
g) It's there, and while it's not your main interest, you feel bad ignoring it? (i.e Mulder and Scully clearly have something, and while you're mostly into the aliens, you do feel the ship should have some presence.)
h) Other?

Of course, it can be more than one reason (a combination of b and d, for instance) so feel free to include several reasons. And you might have different reasons for different ships. For instance, my reason for shipping Grissom/Sara is probably a and vaguely f. Doctor/Rose is more d2 and b, and time will tell if it's f as well.

This brings me to the next bit - do you think the varying reasons for shipping can lead to conflicts? Because I do.

For example - Grissom/Sara ship. Not everyone ships it for the same reason. A lot of people who ship it are Sara-fans who want Sara to have Grissom, but their main interest is Sara herself. Others are Grissom fans. During the debacle of the return of Lady Heather, a former flame of Grissom as it were, the two sides did clash a bit. Grissom-fans felt Grissom and William Peterson who played him got bashed. Sara-fans felt Grissom was betraying Sara and were pissed off.

Another example - Doctor/Rose. Some who ship it are very fond of Rose. Some are more there for reason g. The two sides have gotten into various scrapes over characterisation of Rose and her importance in the grand scheme of things. And when Martha comes along, clashes may occur between main a-shippers and Rosefans on one side, more f-shippers and Doctorfans on the other.

Am I totally off here? Because I've been into a few ships now and treating shippers as just one group of people of the same motives don't always work too well. Clashes within a ship group can to a certain degree be explained by personal grudges - and don't we (almost) all have those - but not always. So I'm wondering. What do you think? And if you're not into shipping at all, what's your perspective? Are shippers all one crowd of same people to you, or do you detect differences?

(For bonus points - is batshit in shipping all a matter of your own perspective and doesn't exist objectively? Do some reasons for shipping seem to spawn it more than others? Is it simply something that always crops up in groups because humans are humans akin?)

Opine, please.

Comments

[canadianevil.livejournal.com]

Sneaky ninja comment. My reasons for shipping are almost entirely c.

A few of them are for reason h- it's canon and it works for me.

[ericasj.livejournal.com]

It's a bit of both a and b for my current OTP. I do like Grissom, but I'm far more interested in Catherine.

LMAO. Mulder/Scully is certainly the best example for g.

[padawanpooh.livejournal.com]

I'm a veteran of quite a few ships, going right back to Tegan/Five, Vincent/Catherine, Q/Picard and Jareth/Sarah. I think my main reasons are (c) and (d2) - (c) because much of the fanfic is shippier than the on-screen canon (perhaps with the exception of Q/Picard - how much slashier can you get than Q-Who?, and (d2) because I,like many people, like to indulge in warm fuzzies from time to time.

I think different reasons for shipping can certainly spark off batshit attacks - Rose/Nine -v- Rose/Ten was never thankfully too bad, but Ten/Rose -v- Ten/Martha was getting nasty for a while there. I still think much of that one was because Old Skoolers knew that the Doctor had intense but platonic friendships with women, and maybe people coming in with the new series, and especially since we had so much canon-fodder on screen, were convinced it *had* to be One True Love.


The only parallel of Rose -v- Martha that springs to mind is Catherine -v- Diana Bennett - B&B fans seemed to sort that one out, but it seemd to take time. My guess is D/R and D/M will too. For the record I desperately hope Doctor/Martha stays as a 'traditional' Doctor/Companion relationship as I think I may go into diabetic shock if we have too much sweetness on screen...D/R was very special but should probably stay as a one-off.

/rant.

[peki.livejournal.com]

Hmm, this is interesting. With most ships, I'd say it's b or f, for me, but there are exceptions, and that's where OTP shipping comes in.

Weirdly, with my main ship (Lucius/Narcissa, in Harry Potter) I think it's both a and b - I like each of the characters individually and I do read gen fic about them, but if they're written in any kind of romantic/sexual situation, I only ship them as a couple (i.e. with no one else). I guess that's what an OTP is.

Thus, I get very frustrated when people write them for reasons c, e and g, for example - c can often lead to characterisation being sacrificed for the sake of kinky, over-the-top porn fic (and nothing against porn, but I'd rather have in-character porn *g*). It's similar with e and g, when the characters are written simply to serve some other ship's purpose.

It's stupid to get annoyed by something like that, because I know that different people react to different aspects in a pairing that appeal to them, and it's hard to say which approach is most valid. But still, because I feel so strongly about this ship, I'm more inclined to get irked by people not sharing my opinion. Not that I'd get wanky about it, personally, or bitch at people for not writing them the way I want (omg!), but yeah, different reasons for shipping can lead to conflict, if all parties involved get worked up enough.

'Batshit' isn't entirely subjective though, I think (or perhaps I'm just arrogant) - sometimes, shippers' ways of expressing their love for a pairing are just insane. *g*

[aervir.livejournal.com]

For the ships I really love, it's mainly a reason falling into category h) (other): I like both characters on their own and their interactions. They have to interest me independently from their relationship, but the relationship also adds the attraction of romance or loyal friendship (I'm a sort of platonic shipper/friendshipper for some of my pairings).

Examples:

-- Éowyn/Faramir in bookverse!LOTR. They both belong to my favourite characters in the entire novel on their own; however, the more I think about their decision to marry, the more I can see reasons not necessarily given in the text, but extracted from the source material why they are really an excellent match .

-- Mulder/Scully in the earlier seasons of The X-Files before the show started to suck. Mulder as the angsty paranoid outcast genius and Scully as the cool, rational, capable scientist are both very strong, almost archetypal characters in their own right. But the canon dynamic we got to see was also very fascinating, loyalty and devotion and balancing each other vs. a sort of fucked-up co-dependence.

I could cite many more examples of this, but I don't want to bore you. Apart from that, I'm also very keen on canon or strong canonical hints, i.e. even though I don't like a canon pairing, I would never ignore it. It has to be considered to some extent in meta posts about characterization or in fanfiction. This would be your option g, I guess.

Oh, and there's option i) for me, too. I'm not invested in that particular canon or fanon pairing, but I won't say no to well-written meta or especially fanfic about it.

[aervir.livejournal.com]

Hmm, my option i) is very much like your option c), just minus the hotness. My shipping tends to be weirdly asexual sometimes.

[aervir.livejournal.com]

And what I also wanted to say (think first, type later?) is that I'm rather relaxed when it comes to shipping. I only tend to get very defensive when one of my 'ships is summarily attacked and dismissed by an outsider.

For example, if someone posted something along the lines of "Anyone who ships Horatio/Archie in the Hornblower fandom is a batshit fan of woobified slash pairings, an oppressive tool of the patriarchy and a militarist uniform fetishist," I would definitely be annoyed, whereas I don't give a damn if someone posts at length about why they personally prefer Hornblower/Bush to my "OTP".

("OTP" in inverted commas because I find the hardcore insistence on One True Love (TM) always a bit scary.)

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

(I shall stick to our common fandom here.)

b) Really, really liking one person in the ship and feeling the other is the best match, but not really taking so much interest in the other?

Mostly how I ship in most fandoms, I reckon. I get an OTC and then the one I ship them with. Doctor/Everyone, yay!


d) The idea that it will one day become Canon?

Do people really ship like that? That's honestly one I've never understood. Do you have to, like, make yourself like things for that?


d2) While it will may or may not truly become Canon, it is the ship with the most Canon support/hints.

My canon is flexible. Has had to be. I don't listen to anyone who tells me the Doctor isn't half-human, omfg!


And when Martha comes along, clashes may occur between main a-shippers and Rosefans on one side, more f-shippers and Doctorfans on the other.

Totally. Some are gonna jump over to the new ship because Martha's there at the time for post-ep porn and whatnot. Which may indeed cause conflict if it becomes a dividing line among people who've otherwise always been more or less in agreement over shipping matters.


Clashes within a ship group can to a certain degree be explained by personal grudges

I tend to end up in conflicts with people who see the ship as the whole point, above anything else. The romantics and me don't really get on well. I've had flamewars over whether half of an OTP is allowed to have had sex by the age of 35.


is batshit in shipping all a matter of your own perspective and doesn't exist objectively? Do some reasons for shipping seem to spawn it more than others?

We'd need to define "batshit" first. DW's batshit is... *thinks* "an ongoing and hardline insistence on exclusivity even in fannish contexts, which is incendiary only in a fandom with a large number of possible and non-conflicting OTPs." In other words very very romantic stuff that'd be just a bit eyeroll-causing anywhere else. "Thou shalt not suffer another possible ship to live" sort of thing? Or am I way off?

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

My ultimate DW OTP probably really is Seven'n'Ace, asexually as I ship them.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

For the record I desperately hope Doctor/Martha stays as a 'traditional' Doctor/Companion relationship as I think I may go into diabetic shock if we have too much sweetness on screen...D/R was very special but should probably stay as a one-off.

I think we could get flamewars breaking along those lines, if we get a hardcore of Ten/Martha (or "Dartha") shippers who come to resent Ten/Rose acting as a block to their ship simply by having existed and caused an avoidance of repetition. Especially flammable if this theoretical Ten/Martha hardcore start running into the possible/likely posts about how Rose must be left special.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Hello ninja!

Heh, your h sounds a variation on g, really. I am that way with some pairings I might not actively ship, but I don't counter-ship them either, as it were.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've detected that :P I like Catherine too, but I prefer Warrick with her, which probably is to do with a variation of c.

Mulder and Scully were the only ones that came instantly to mind there, heh.

[aervir.livejournal.com]

Platonic love FTW!

There sometimes are just great relationships that I either can't or simply don't want to interpret as sexual, or where it would take a lot of effort to convince me that there might be sex involved.

(Seven/Ace tends to fall into the "OMG, I don't even want to consider them having sex!" department, at least for me.)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I think you're onto something with the Old Skool and new fans expectations to how companions work with the Doctor, but on the other hand, the series is revived and is treading some new territory, so Martha may not play out quite as expected for any side. I guess we'll see.

Time does seem to sort out most issues, though some seem to stay defining. From what I hear, the Spike Wars of BtVS fandom still have issues and fall-out going. But that one was bitter - takes a lot for fandom to permanently divide, me thinks.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

OTP seems to mean to many different things to different people I sometimes have trouble figuring out what it means ;) But generally, implies some sort of exclusitivity, yes.

It's stupid to get annoyed by something like that, because I know that different people react to different aspects in a pairing that appeal to them, and it's hard to say which approach is most valid. But still, because I feel so strongly about this ship, I'm more inclined to get irked by people not sharing my opinion. Not that I'd get wanky about it, personally, or bitch at people for not writing them the way I want (omg!), but yeah, different reasons for shipping can lead to conflict, if all parties involved get worked up enough.

Yes. That's pretty much what I've been observing, I think. People who share a preference for a ship, but still get into these fights or wanks or whatever because the motivations are different. Hence, you can get conflict at times.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that would be g, just defined a little differently. I think most of these reasons you could define a bit differently - it was just the way it made sense to me at the moment.

And yes, I agree with you on Éowyn and Faramir - I do enjoy both on their own and as a pairing. Good point there.

i) I'm not sure if is shipping as so - it possibly can be, but shipping usually involves a little active interest in my book. But this can vary from person to person, I'm sure.

[crackpig.livejournal.com]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/coast/shipping/

[cedara]

Hmm... a mix between (c), (d), (d2) and (h), I think.

I need to have visual confirmation of there being something between the characters that would make it probable to slash/ship them, eg. friendship, UST, antagonism (not of the hate kind, but of the sparring kind). There must be some level of trust to make it plausible.

For me, that means, of course, I can see House/Cameron, House/Cuddy or House/Wilson as possible pairings.

In regard to Doctor Who, it all depends on whether you're in the sexual or asexual category - he's certainly loved all companions he ever had, some more some less. As for Rose/Doctor, for me the overtones in the show were bigger with #9 than with #10, even though #10 is better eyecandy.

[aervir.livejournal.com]

i) I'm not sure if is shipping as so - it possibly can be, but shipping usually involves a little active interest in my book. But this can vary from person to person, I'm sure.

Just assume the least amount of active interest possible. Actually, I'm unable to read anything where I'm not emotionally invested in the source material im some way. But if you give me a great shipper fic from any of my fandoms that doesn't involve a pairing I actively dislike or that squicks me for whichever reason, I'm most likely to read it.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

My thoughts on shipping:

I tend to, for the most part, like canon ships. Dunno why, just do. My shipping tendency thus tend to be a bit of b) - because I do have distinct character preferences (Thus my Ten/anyone tendancies). And then we get a bit of my h) - A ship that is both already canon, but you like both characters in it both individually, and as a couple (Han/Leia, Wash/Zoe).

There's a few case of c) I have. Some of which coincide with my reasons for Ten/whoever. ;)

That said, though I go for canon ships mostly, the canonships I prefer tend to be more due to the type of character dynamic between the two, which is something you haven't touched on as much.

Also: For me, batshit shipping is anyone who takes a perspective to an extreme level, despite what that position is. I do think some reasons get a bit more of it, because they have a more wild starting point (anyone who tries Real Person shipping predictively automatically goes in my batshit basket) And as for groups... well, groups have a distinct power in influencing individual opinions. I had an exam on this very topic less than a week ago, I could give you social psych evidence for this if you wanted...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Do people really ship like that? That's honestly one I've never understood. Do you have to, like, make yourself like things for that?

People ship like that. I think some do it for that moment where they go "haha, I knew they'd get together! All those fanfics I wrote about them getting together - those got it right!" People like the feeling of backing a winning horse.

Totally. Some are gonna jump over to the new ship because Martha's there at the time for post-ep porn and whatnot. Which may indeed cause conflict if it becomes a dividing line among people who've otherwise always been more or less in agreement over shipping matters.

Yeah. That's what I am thinking. Though it depends how strongly people feel about their reasons for shipping as well. It may very well be just light clashes of more hardcore lot, while the majority isn't too worked up about it.

I tend to end up in conflicts with people who see the ship as the whole point, above anything else. The romantics and me don't really get on well. I've had flamewars over whether half of an OTP is allowed to have had sex by the age of 35.

I think 'romantics' can be a wide term - I consider myself so not because I see the romance as the whole point per say, but because I am often more interested in exploring the dynamics in a romance than perhaps in a friendship. That make sense? (Though that varies - sometimes, I'm more into the friendships. Sometimes not.)

We'd need to define "batshit" first. DW's batshit is... *thinks* "an ongoing and hardline insistence on exclusivity even in fannish contexts, which is incendiary only in a fandom with a large number of possible and non-conflicting OTPs." In other words very very romantic stuff that'd be just a bit eyeroll-causing anywhere else. "Thou shalt not suffer another possible ship to live" sort of thing? Or am I way off?

I dunno. Defining batshit to be is a bit like defining life - I just know it when I see it. I guess it's living in a bubble a bit. What others see as logic and sanity becomes to you persecution and what-not. Becoming too insistent on always being right seem to be an easy way to go to batshit - other opinions can just never have even a point, and therefore you have to refute them with increasing ridiculus arguments.

Defining batshit seems a project of its own, really.

[falena]

Oh dear, you and your thought-provoking posts that force me to organise my opinions in a semi-coherent manner...

For me to ship a particular pairing, I need to find both character interesting individually first. So I guess that rules out option a) and b) for me.

Options d) looks all sorts of scary to me (as most people who practise this sort of shipping seems a bit delusional to me - unless the couple has already become Canon in their fandom). Anyway, I usually don't care much about my ship becoming canon. I mean, I wouldn't mind it if a ship of mine became Canon, but it's not a prerequisite for shipping, in my mind. For example, two of the ships I find most intriguing are Mal/River (Serenity) and Snape/Hermione (HP). Yet the fact they will never become Canon doesn't disturb me at all.

This doesn't mean I don't give a toss about Canon per se. Quite the contrary. In fact, I must say that option d2) plays a role in my shipping ways. I might not need my ship to be the most-strongly based in Canon, but it does have to have some sort of Canon-support.

I don't do the side-ship thing. I don't belive in OTPs much anyway. In fact I don't think I have a OTP.

f) is so not my thing. Romance and I are unmixy things, most of the time. (Which is probably the reason why I'm so 'easygoing' in my shipping).

So, this was a very convoluted way of saying that for me it's mostly option c), since I do not expect my ship to make it to the screen. And your post just made me realise that I'm a hge g-shipper when it comes to Grissom/Sara. I never knew before!*lol*
To sum things up, I think I could theoretically ship evryone/everyone (*lol* sounds like an orgy) provided there is some Canon support for the pairing and I like both characters enough. Most of the time, though, I can't simply be bothered to ship. If fandom was a meal, shipping would be just a side dish, one of those you eat only when you're really really hungry or when they're very yummy. (I lose at metaphors).

As for the second part of your question...I agree with you. Different 'styles' of shipping lead to conflicts. And that's why there are clashes even between people who ship the same pairing.

Batshit...uhm, the very fact that there is not a universally shared definition of batshit (as far as I know) is significant already. I tend to consider batshit shippers similar to religious fundamentalist so maybe you made a good point with the 'humans are humans'argument. I dunno, though.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Smartarse troll.

[crackpig.livejournal.com]

ME-OW!

[misscam.livejournal.com]

For me, that means, of course, I can see House/Cameron, House/Cuddy or House/Wilson as possible pairings.

I've only watched like five episodes of House yet, and I agree. I seem to get some hints of Chase/Cameron as well, though that might've been dropped later on. I know not.

The Doctor certainly loved/loves a lot of people. But yeah, as you said, if it gets interpreted sexually or not seems a lot to do with personal preference.