What's too far in fandom, then?

[misscam]

So first there was Anybody But Sara (ABS for short) and now there's 'Anybody But ABS' around.

Then there was the old, old 'Catherine is a slut!' 'No, she isn't!'

Greggsgirl thinks that all strippers are sluts, apparently:
Ok! This video would be really great if it was Gregg in there! But anyway Catherine is such a HO! She thinks that evey guy wants her because she was a stripper! Who really even cares! That was the only job she could get were a guy doesn't care what your face looks like cuz if they did care she would have starved! In my opinion she otta go back to that job! Cuz she still acts like a total SLUTT!

ericasj is not particulary amused:
Bashing someone like that ain't cool at all. Hold it until you're in your forties and look as good as she does now. And face it, Catherine is the leading female of this show and you won't see her leave anytime soon.

But we shouldn't listen to her, as she's just out to get in Catherine's pants:
Ok! Whateva! In my opinion you r just plain retarded ericasj because i find it strange to think that you probably a woman yourself thinks that ho (i mean catherine) and i quote "looks good"! yeah if your a lesbo!

And after these two examples of things getting personal, here's my question - what is too far in disagreements online? Where do you draw the line at Fighting For Your Ship/Favourite Character/Version of Canon? How easy is it to form little vendettas online and drive them too far?

All too easy, I have a sneaking suspicion. CSI fandom is not alone - Harry Potter fandom has had some infamous disagreements that started over ships and got way personal, Doctor Who fandom has had different views on Rose get somewhat nasty... I'm sure you can think of examples from other fandoms. And giving the bias of the brain, seeing everything subjective, there's not going to be agreement on everything in a fandom. Debates will happen, which is mostly good.

But here's two things I think is taking things too far.

1) Sexual slurs. Abhor them. Whether against fictional characters or online personas, the fact that it so, so often gets throw around about women by women just leaves me feeling depressed. Why is someone's sexual history a weapon to be used against them? Not on. Not on at all. And a subsection under this - going after someone's looks. Because 'ugly' and 'fat' are disqualifications for your opinions mattering, apparently, and totally valid reasons for character bashing. Yeeeep. Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder at all, it seems.

2) Using real life stuff against someone online. When the disagreement is online, keep it online. No need to make the playing field muddy.

That's two of mine. What are yours? And have you ever gone too far and only realised it later? (I know I have.) How much does peer support play into behaviour in fandom? And if The Other Side has crossed the line, is it okay to cross it as well? I'm curious what people think, so... Opinions, please?


(P.S For Sondre Lerche fans - sneak exclusive preview of his entire album!)

Comments

[lotus79.livejournal.com]

Hullo, you!

Well, I agree 150% with yours, as you well know. I think belittling someone else in any way is going too far, really. There is never a need to get "personal" in a fandom discussion.

And the awful grammar hurts almost as much as the frotyhing hatespeech. So glad I am not in CSI fandom.

[jocelyncs.livejournal.com]

What are yours?

People who think that "Fandom is Serious Business." As cheap and lame as plagiarism in fanfiction is, it doesn't merit harassing someone in the Real World. Same goes for badfic, etc. Same also goes for "vendettas" that involve falsely reporting individuals for site abuse, or just lying in general. It doesn't matter if the target is the biggest dirtbag on the Intarweb--if so, let 'em be a dirtbag on their merits. Making up gossip and spreading it around the web automatically puts the liar below the target, no matter what the target has done.

And have you ever gone too far and only realised it later?

I reported a plagiarist/false abuse reporter's crap stories and fanart to Godawful. It was a cheap move.

How much does peer support play into behaviour in fandom? And if The Other Side has crossed the line, is it okay to cross it as well?

Uh...no. Never. If the Other Side crosses the line, then deal with their actions as they stand alone--report them for abuse if abuse has occurred, and if necessary, report them for harassment or cyberstalking. There are enough watchdog groups in western civilization for almost anybody to get assistance. If all else fails, bail the hell out of the fight. Fandom isn't worth it.

[ashiya.livejournal.com]

Hey! Glad to see you again!

What video are they talking about? o_O Do I even want to know?

As soon as someone starts bashing me personally, you are definitely crossing a line. Fandoms/ships and all the interaction online is awesome, but you shouldn't go around calling people names over things like that because I just think it's pointless.

[marcasite.livejournal.com]

Sexual/Personal slurs are too much. Ugh, why do we have to resort to such name calling over fandom?

And bad grammar/netspeak in insults? Whoa, way to show your intelligence.

[ericasj.livejournal.com]

I thought about replying to her by quoting a friend: I thinks that HO (yes I mean Catherine) and I quote "looks good" and I ain't no lesbo. But nah, it hurts my eyes just reading the sentence that I'm too retarded to understand. Don't wanna embarrass myself with bad grammar. Truth be told, I think she has embarrassed herself to no end with the awful writing and the homophobia comment.

As for me, I don't mind turning gay for Catherine. Not at all. ;)

[ericasj.livejournal.com]

Oh and, the ABABS thing is so not creative. Using the layout she uses and imitating her tone just to bash her seems quite lame to me. And I know it's not right to bash someone, fictional or not, but still, there's a difference between bashing a fictional character and a real person.

[hadria.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, the ABS person bashes real people on their journal/blog as well. They're hardly an innocent party.

[ericasj.livejournal.com]

Oh okay, if that's the case. I've only been to ABS for a couple of times so I guess I didn't really have an idea.

[cincoflex.livejournal.com]

heh, I've always hated character bashing, so I'm sure folks would know that personal remarks are seriously out-of-line. It kills me because on the internet too, we're ALL gorgeous slim young things you know--none of us are fat or ugly or old--as if it matters.

The Anybody But ABS stuff was depressing as hell to read. All that creative talent just to bash a single poster. And for the record, what is the problem with moles, even hairy ones? Sheesh, I can think of worse things to have or suffer from, believe me---

[crusherbevdr.livejournal.com]

I don't reply very often to your posts, but this time I must. You are so right. I rarely go to the CSI message board because of the slurs that occur there. Its scary to think that CBS is relying on these people for their input on CSI.

Frequently, ships seem to go to far in their debate. I have to admit at times I'm guilty of it, but it always leaves a distaste in my mouth. I quit going to YTDAW because of the things I had seen about Sara and I never go into the Sara threads at TALK.

What bothers me about all of this is I like Sara, but I like Catherine too. Because of the ship wars, it comes across if you like one you can't like the other. That's really sad.

[crusherbevdr.livejournal.com]

Forgot to add this to my post.

I really, really hate it when people can't differntiate between the character and the actress. Just because you don't like Catherine don't bash Marg and vice-versa for Sara/Jorja. I think I dislike that more than anything.

Sorry to vent on your LJ.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

S'okay. Vent all you want - I quite agree. And bashing is really hard to weed out once its gained a footing in a forum as well. Sigh.

[csinut214.livejournal.com]

I just clicked on the "Anybody but ABS" link and the posts are gone. Maybe they went friends-only? Anyway I read that site a few days ago. Some parts went over the line in my opinion (like questioning ABS's motherly skills) but I did think some of it was funny. Hopefully if they make public posts again they will be less mean-spirited in nature.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Deleted, possibly. And within hours of this post. Yeah, I got ideas about who was behind it in the first place.

If one is going to go after someone for being nasty and bashing, it would probably help not to be so in return, me thinks. And not cross certain lines.

[csinut214.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I got ideas about who was behind it in the first place.

Haha, Cam is all-knowing when it comes to wank. Evildoers beware!!

I know you're in other fandoms too... are they all as drama-filled as CSI's? I was in the X-Files fandom a long time ago, and it was pretty much wank-free. Of course, that was back during the listserve age, before the advent of message boards... I'm showing my age, aren't I. :P

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Hah. I have good wank nose? Or maybe I just have good informants, who knows... Really though, fandom is not that big and stuff gets around.

X-Files had some classic wanks - I was vaguely in it too, but that was more in its elder days. I think where you are in fandom plays in how wanky you feel it is, really. CSI isn't uniquely wanky - Harry Potter got it way beat - but it is wankier than many others I know of. Particulary the extreme ship divides here.

GSR happening put it above average wanky, I'd say.

[spotts1701.livejournal.com]

And after these two examples of things getting personal, here's my question - what is too far in disagreements online? Where do you draw the line at Fighting For Your Ship/Favourite Character/Version of Canon? How easy is it to form little vendettas online and drive them too far?

1. When you stop arguing about the fandom and start engaging in straight-on personal attacks (especially if gender, race or sexual orientation come into play as weapons).

2. If one person claims they "know" more about the character or fandom than the creator of said...that's a very thin line that gets crossed all too often.

3. Filing a false report of Terms of Service violations to your opponent's ISP (either for their web host or their e-mail provider). That kind of thing has severe real-world consequences, especially if your opponent works in an industry that conducts periodic background and/or "character and fitness" checks.

[falena]

Character's bashing is not cool in general, but I can live with it. I tend to ignore it. However, personal attacks are definitely too much.

I wouldn't really know where exactly you're supposed to draw the line, when defending your ship/OTP/show/whatever. See, I'm really terrible at arguing my case, both on line and in RL. (I'm a big wimp, it's no big mystery). So, I seldom get into fights. Hence, my lack of experience.

And, omg Sondre Lerche! Thank you! Sadly I own only three of his tracks (thanks to briasoleil, she of the brilliant music taste), but he's so on my 'must get more' list.

Question: are you keeping up with season two of Rome or are you waiting for it to start airing in the Old Continent?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Waiting, so far. We have to see how long my patience lasts.

Come to Norway and get all the Sondre you want ;)

[falena]

Your willpower is impressive, as usual.

I gave in and got it in my usual not-so-legal-way. Heh.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Naughty! V. v. naughty.

My willpower has been strengthened by an enormous amount of sports on TV to take my attention away. Yes.

[nirix5.livejournal.com]

Fandom being taken way too seriously is what makes me stay out of it for the most part. But the thing that drives me nuts is when the fans cross the line with the actors or whoever- remember when someone gave Theban Band slash art to Billy Boyd and Dominic Mo- (hell, too tired to figure out that spelling.) That was just embarassing for slashers everywhere in my opinion, and they were appalled.

Not that I really have to worry about it lol. Every time I try to post something on a message board, anywhere, I get chewed out for being a noob and everyone ignores me and my weirdo pairings and crossovers anyway ;)

[tayeatra.livejournal.com]

The bad grammar and personal slurs always put me off the argument but I only usually put my foot in it to stick up for another poster.

If it remains 'about the character' then I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. I do however, appear to be more than capable of shooting myself in the head when it's all getting a little personal. Whilst I try not to say anything derrogatory I have to admit that I look over old posts and wince because taken out of context they're just too much. If the internet had body language and facial expressions then things wouldn't get so disproportionate... but then we'd lose the benefits of free speech also. It's a double edged sword.

[hadria.livejournal.com]

Hey! You're back.

I hope you have not missed rosie's multiple meltdowns where she accused WP of being a liar and then claimed she would shoot/hit/spank him for lying, but she's kidding, sort of, so as not to get into legal trouble, I'm sure.

The A-ABS blog doesn't seem to be there anymore? that original ABS person is a dumbshit for all their antics.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I am indeed back. Sorta. And yeah, I've seen the rosie stuff. See latest entry. She's... Her fixation on degrading Sara has boggled my mind several times, but this is a new.

It got deleted fairly soon after this post, it seems. Interesting. And yeah, I am aware of ABS's various postings on YTDAW, TalkCSI, LH fanplaces and what-not.

Good to see you back, MissCam...

[anybodybutsara.livejournal.com]

Anti-ABSers?...

I just went to have a look and it appears to be gone...

Drat...

I would've liked to have seen it...

Oh, well...

I'm certain there'll be more idiocy eventually...

Oh, btw, I sent a case of Kaluha for the wankshelter...

Laterz,
ABS;)

Re: Good to see you back, MissCam...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Eh, best unseen, me thinks. I am of the opinion that if one pushes negativity, one just has to expect and live with negative reactions to it. But there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, and that thing got way too personal in its attacks, if you ask me.

Which maybe the person posting it realised and thus deleted.

I have to say you do skate the lines for me on some of the stuff I've seen you post as well, but that's me. Opinions may vary.

Kaluha is always good, though.

Re: Good to see you back, MissCam...

[anybodybutsara.livejournal.com]

You'll get no arguments from me...On any counts...

Yes, I thought Mudslides might be yummy...

ABS;)

[ravenclaw-devi.livejournal.com]

(via metafandom)

I think it goes too far the moment you stop discussing the character/ship/fandom element, and start going into ad hominems.