Why hate? Some ponderings on character bashing, fandom and I-POV

[misscam]

Disclaimer: I like Rose. I like Martha. I like Sara. I like Catherine. I like Lady Heather. I like Cameron. I like Cuddy. I like a lot of female characters. Quite often, there's one or two things I can identify with, though I very rarely feel one of them is some sort of avatar for me. They do sometimes annoy me, but hey, so can my friends.

I hardly ever feel a particular need to hate on a character. I do however sometimes feel the urge to, if not hate on, grrr at other parts of fandom. (For varying reasons - personal differences, petty grudges, particular opinions I've felt offensive, that they've insulted me first... Blah, blah.) So I got to wondering - how much of character bashing is really trying to strike at the fans of that character? How much character hate is motivated by the way the fans of that character acts? How much does hating on your favourite character make you want to hate on another one, the one your 'enemies' really like? And how much is driven by shipwars?

What do you think?

Because I'm thinking there is quite often a personal element at work too. From my viewpoint, fictional characters should not inspire that much hate. Fictional characters should not inspire Anybodybut... sort of places. Not just on their own. There has to be something else at work. Doesn't there?

I hope so, because the amount of hate and energy put into that hate sometimes just makes me dive for the Wankshelter. It seems so... Stupid, and yet I get involved in petty grrr-ing stuff myself, even knowing it's bloody stupid. Why? (I think I can safely say that both people who really, really like Rose and people who really, really don't like Rose have both at different times inspired me to be stupidly contrary. Maybe because it makes me feel like there's no room in the middle. I've had similar reactions in CSI fandom and House fandom I don't even want to look at.)

I suspect the trouble is that fandom is full of humans. Humans only have I-POV, and anyone who has written a bit know why I-POV can be a pain in the ass. Maybe we should get ourselves a narrator - "And 'lo, then Cam was a hateful git."

But then, would anyone really listen to some annoying know-it-all?

Meanwhile, you can all do some for Martha and Rose non-bashing and sign-up for the Martha and Rose or Martha/Rose ficathon. Hurrah!

Comments

[miss-andromache.livejournal.com]

I found the hating to be too much in fandom, that in a lot of respects I withdrew. I get annoyed when people are surprised that I like most characters in the shows that I watch, and that I very rarely hate anyone. (With the exception of Aiden in CSI:NY, I was glad to see her go)

I don't really understand how people can put so much time and effort into hating ships/characters and the people who like them. I really don't.

*dives for the wankshelter**

[malaleen.livejournal.com]

I've definitely come to actively dislike characters that was more based on the fans reactions/defenses of them, rather than the character's actions themselves. There are several HP characters that have been ruined for me because of the nutty behaviour I've seen from their fans and the acts they will do to prove the character's worth.

What is starting to annoy me, and ultimately has caused criticism of myself, is that the what's happening to Rose's character in the DW universe. I don't hate Rose as a character. I don't really relate to her, but I don't hate her. If I hated her, I certainly wouldn't have written so much fan fic with her as a central character. It's just right now I want to revel in the new companion for a while, and it seems some in fandom are determined to take away from that.

Now, I'm not going to say I'm innocent in all this. Some of my comments on my personal lj are rather harsh towards Rose's character, but it bothers me to see a flawed character like hers elevated to Mary Sue status by both her fans and the shows producers. Rose was not the perfect foil for the Doctor as some like to imply. But sometimes expressing those opinions in the climate of this fandom at the moment is very, very hard to do.

[cincoflex.livejournal.com]

Heh, we've touched on this before, MissCam, and you know that I believe a fan's loyalty to a ship often hangs on how much they identify with the female in the ship. I work on not hating because I try to pull back a bit and see the good in all women (snort, go ME) and yet I find myself often shocked at how much we fans with ovaries instead of testes can be vicious in attacks towards other females.

I'll support the Martha/Rose ficathon, but sadly, since I've yet to see any Martha eps I'll just wait patiently until SciFi starts broadcasting those puppies. *sigh*

[longtimegone]

I'm going to jump on your coat tails, because you have a lot of good points I'd like to comment on! :D

There are several HP characters that have been ruined for me because of the nutty behaviour I've seen from their fans and the acts they will do to prove the character's worth.

So much WORD here! It makes me sad, my negative reactions to characters and ships, sometimes. And I know that it's a factor of how I perceive the fans of those characters/pairings more than anything. So yeah, completely personal in that aspect.

It's just right now I want to revel in the new companion for a while, and it seems some in fandom are determined to take away from that.

And you know? That's okay! That you want to enjoy the new companion, that is. I say this mainly because I feel the same way (even if I did really like Rose). ;) I think, because shipping and/or companions is a touchy touchy subject, some feel that you have to be either On This Side or On That Side, and attribute any expression of admiration for either one as Proof Positive that you hate the other. Or, alternately, any pointing out of flaws MUST mean you hate that character and do not appreciate their full worth.

And this is not only annoying, but completely counterproductive. Maybe what you enjoy about a particular character is reveling in their flaws and how they handle the world around them based on that.

to see a flawed character like hers elevated to Mary Sue status by both her fans and the shows producers. Rose was not the perfect foil for the Doctor as some like to imply.

I think the show has actually taken a more "self aware" turn that, while not outright stating this, is ambling down this road. And I think, for now, they are succeeding in doing this without taking away from what the Rose and Doctor were. Which I really really love.

[longtimegone]

I believe a fan's loyalty to a ship often hangs on how much they identify with the female in the ship.

*snorts* TOTALLY! All shipping = Mary Sue-ism in some way. *dodges wank balloons* I mean that in a loving way! :D

I've stated many a time before that I think all the shipping wank in the HP fandom was based on female fans over-identifying with Hermione and shipping her based on the type of guy THEY would prefer.

And since I have a thing for lonely gods, tragic heroes destined to SAVE THE WORLD OMG, I always prefered Harry with Hermione. :)) Had much more to do with me than the book. ;)

So really, in that respect, the Doctor Who fandom works for me, because, assuming the companion is female, I'm probably going to relate to her on some level, so I'll always sekritly be shipping Doctor/me. :>

Isn't that nice how that works? ahahahahaha

[badonkatonks.livejournal.com]

"so I'll always sekritly be shipping Doctor/me. :>"

This is a very insightful observation. I could not agree with you more about this.

Could you help me out here? Which sounds better, Doctor/Badonkatonks or Doctor/Jacquie? :-D

[grimorie.livejournal.com]

I have to admit when I was very new to fandom, really, new to the net I fell prey to the fandom mentality of hating a character just because they replaced one character in my OTP. This happened in both Buffy and Angel. I hated, hated, hated Kate and Riley it was only when I looked back and rewatched the episodes without seeing them in fannish lenses and reading some good reviews on Riley and Kate did I realize how much I was affected by the community I was in.

I discovered that I really did like Kate and that while Riley may be unexciting he wasn't completely boring.

After that I swore I'd give each character a chance and try very hard not to be swayed by popular opinion again.

Now, if I do dislike a character I make sure it was my own opinion.

[chicklet73.livejournal.com]

the amount of hate and energy put into that hate sometimes just makes me dive for the Wankshelter

Me too. It baffles me - how something, anything, about a TV show one claims to love can inspire such vituperative hate. Seems like such a waste of energy.

You know what also baffles me? The implication that if you like Martha, you've forgotten Rose. Or that if you prefer Rose, you must hate Martha.

Who says it's a zero-sum game?

[wickedelf.livejournal.com]

I'm not an active partcipant in "fandom" or shipwars, and I don't think fandom has affected my opinions of characters that much. And I wouldn't say I *hate* any characters, because as you say, they are totally fictional.

But there are many characters I can't stand, including some you've listed, just based on their actions. If I knew them in real life... I would go out of my way to avoid them.

But then again, where's the line between "bashing" and criticism? As a fan of a show/book/movie, I think it's perfectly normal to sit around and critique and chatter about what the various characters do. That's why we watch it (to get sucked in and feel something about the characters and their lives). If I say character X is stupid because s/he can't deal with blahblah or acknowledge their feelings or whatever... I don't see that as bashing or hatred.

But maybe I'm not the kind of person this is directed at either. :-)

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

Interesting point, and one I've never considered. I've stepped away from all the wank floating around the eljays because a)it was on my watch at who_daily that the crap started and b) ship wars are stupid.

But I think you've hit upon something. People tend to fall into camps with like-minded individuals and it can quickly becomes a "us against them" scenario which, ultimately, has very little to do with the source material. And yes, the middle gets dicey because *any* opinion can get you assigned to one side or another which, again, stupid. When fandom wars start becoming that important that it colors your outlook I think you're giving fandom too much power and it's time to step away from the computer.

Plus, it's all so grim and serious. Remember to good old days when people would slag off a character with wit and humor?

*reminisces fondly about the Romana/Rose ship wars*

In conclusion, Doctor/TARDIS. The O- ship.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

You know what also baffles me? The implication that if you like Martha, you've forgotten Rose. Or that if you prefer Rose, you must hate Martha.

Who says it's a zero-sum game?

THANK you. It seems like the attitude sometimes is that if you like one, there's no way you can like the other. Which is utterly ridiculous. Why can't I appreciate both characters for their own unique personalities and flaws? And pointing out those flaws is also not an indication of character hate. Well, as long as it's not done in an inflammatory fashion, anyway. :-)

[platypus]

Argh, yes. I liked Rose. I like Martha. And as a result, I've probably been rude about extreme statements on both sides of this little kerfuffle.

But hey, on the bright side, at least nobody's still arguing that he's asexual. (runs for the hills)

[highwindpav.livejournal.com]

I believe a fan's loyalty to a ship often hangs on how much they identify with the female in the ship.

That's probably an accurate observation for the most part, but I'm not sure it applies so much to me.

Maybe it's because I so rarely identify with female characters at all that I can't imagine much hanging my hat on a 'ship based on the female part of it...although I readily admit to 'shipping Greg/Sara partly because Sara was so happy around him and I liked seeing happy Sara. I'm much more interested in the male portion of a 'ship, and tend to 'ship based on what he thinks. So in the fandom I'm most involved in at the moment, one of the canon 'ships has a woman in it that I flat out can't stand (hate is a really strong word, but she's fictional, I won't break her pixelated heart if I say I hate her even if I do understand why she is the way she is) but I nominally 'ship that canon 'ship because the guy in it (my favorite character in the series) loves her so deeply. I've written a fic directly about that 'ship and heavily allude to it in other fic because it's what the guy wants. Granted though, I also 'ship him with other characters that I think are better suited to him, since his canon love interest generally ignored him for three years while pining over her dead boyfriend :/

That said...I can see Miss Cam's point about disliking a 'ship because of the people who 'ship it. I think the general atmosphere of YTDaW circa Season 5 soured me on GSR, though I still 'ship 'em.

ITA about how mean ovaried fans can be to other ovaried fans, but I think we're mean in a different way. Fans with testes have a whole other baseline on how they're mean to other fans with testes. Things get weird when they find out they've been guy fanbashing a fan who turns up female. It sort of makes 'em stumble around trying to figure out how to deal with the difference in sex, since tgheir usual attacks don't work...

[non-chieda.livejournal.com]

I don't really hate characters, as a rule. I dislike Renette, but she showed up for one episode and then never troubled me again. Mostly I disliked the Doctor/Renette thing because it just didn't click in my head, and I thought Renette was overdramatic, but I don't OMGHAITSTABSTABSTAB her.

I really like Martha. =D And how the Doctor is still moony over Rose. I could live with Doctor/Martha at the rate things are progressing.

[non-chieda.livejournal.com]

psst

*looks furtively both ways*

if you sign up for veoh
you can see them here

now I gotta go find out where the monkey sounds are coming from oh god tell me the misspelled monkeys didn't escape

*scurries off*

[knorg.livejournal.com]

I like a lot of female characters too.

Specifically, mud-wrestling.

Absolutely agree...

[anybodybutsara.livejournal.com]

First let me say, there are MANY CSI:LV fans that I've enjoyed discussions with. We don't necessarily share the same views on CSI, GSR of whatever, but we didn't attack each other's opinions either.

I think there are at least 4 types of GSRs. There are fans of the GSR ship, fans of Grissom, fans of Sara, and RABID Sara fans (RSFs).

Rabid Sara fans are the type of fan who I see as causing the most wank in particular. The reasons mirror the HP fans who wank over Hermoine, I'm guessing although I've never been to that fandom.

RSFs don't just ship GSR, they actively seek out ways to needle other ships and fans who don't care for the character of Sara.

That is why CSI:LV fandom is so divided, I believe. Casual non-GSR shippers see all GSRs and mistake them for RSFs, but they are not the same.

I think for myself, after enjoying CSI:LV without shipping and only noticing flirtation peripherally, I found the Season 6 finale to be very jarring and unfulfilling.

After a bit of investigation and looking for other CSI:LV fans to discuss the show with, it would figure that I'd stumble unknowingly directly into the biggest GSR forum on the Internet (and the largest nest of RSFs).

But it's a nicely organized and maintained site so I stayed. Little did I realize that every time I added a comment to a critique already in progress by pro-GSRs my comments would be picked apart by rabid Sara fans. I was too inexperienced in the fandom to make a distinction between the various types yet so I grew bitter towards ALL GSRs. My feelings have become finetuned and that is no longer is true.

That RSF dogpiling made me react more negatively than I even truly felt towards GSRs in general and the character of Sara in particular.

I can say without a doubt that my website is a direct result of the hostility I felt directed at me by RSFs for having an opinion, ANY opinion, that wasn't "OMG!!! I lurves Sara!!! GSR4EVA!!!"

I remember registering the domain name after hearing the phrase "ABSers" used and on the heels of a particularly nasty to & fro with several RSFs in PMs who were trying to evangelize me. It was my slap in thier collective faces specifically.

Oddly enough, I find I've posted more on my website as a direct result of similar RSF wank directed at me personally on that particular forum than out of any need to defend my not liking the character of Sara.

I've also posted on my website deliberately to annoy RSFs in direct response to observing bullying of others in fandom, most notably on the House board. I do it because I like the person being bullied and I know my comments about Sara will piss off the bulliers. I consider it just desserts even though up until now no one probably made the connection between the 2 events. I don't ship House, but I really hate bullies.

In other words, when RSFs piss me off I deliberately blog in a way that I know will drive them nutterz. The goal at that time is to make thier lil RSF heads explode. Immature? Yeah. So?

Otherwise, I usually just recap the new episodes as they come out. Contrary to what some GSRs may assume, my website is not a running diatribe against Sara although I don't like the character and have a FAQ posted explaining exactly why.

I do think however that the RSFs who try to publicly bait me are those who feel a strong connection to the character and see my not liking her and my being vocal about it as a poke at them personally. Thier defense of her has less to do with what I have said and more to do with feeling thier values challenged on any level. They see me as representative of all CSI:LV fans who don't like the character of Sara.

Add to that the fact that I read and enjoy certain GSR fandom writers' styles and the way THEY write Sara as opposed to the version CSI:LV shows (which many GSRs feel is hippocritical), and the fact that I don't hang out on anti-Sara forums or lead the "ABSer movement", GSRs really don't know where to pidgeonhole me.

I think the pro-GSRs largely couldn't care less about me or my website. It's the RSFs who rankle.

Anyway, since you opened the line of discussion, I thought I'd try to clarify. Thank you for the opportunity to do so.

ABS;)

[chicklet73.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. And I feel the same way - I'm afraid to even mention if I think either Rose or Martha has shortcomings - lest I be labelled disloyal or a hater. I think both are fantastic characters, and one of the reasons I like them both so much is that they feel like very real, multi-faceted, IMPERFECT people.

[chicklet73.livejournal.com]

on the bright side, at least nobody's still arguing that he's asexual

Bahahaha - YOU'RE RIGHT!