Shipping - need versus want (mostly using Doctor Who and CSI examples)

[misscam]

A question, those ship-inclined - do you ship mainly on basis of what you think the characters want or what you think the characters need?*

*There are other reasons for shipping as well, but we'll get to that.

Because those two needn't be the same. They can be, but don't have to be. You can want someone sympathetic, nice and supportive and need someone who pushes, isn't afraid to be mean and challenges you.**

** Of course, it's not always obvious what a person needs and it's certainly hard to say who can be the judge of it.

I've seen arguments about this in ship wars - Sara and Grissom shagged it up, and many who were in favour of other pairings claimed Sara wasn't what Grissom needed.*** Similarly, some in Doctor Who fandom will acknowledge the Doctor wanted Rose (after a fashion, people have varying opinions of in what way) but that he needs someone more like Martha.***

*** I'm not supporting or slamming either of these views, just saying they exist.

There is also a possible subcategory of the want - you ship on the basis of what you want. You identify with Rose and you'd certainly want the Doctor, you join comms for those. You identify with Martha and you find the Doctor hot, you write porn for them. You feel you have a lot in common with Sara and find Grissom a delicious treat, you litter your LJ with icons of them. You find Catherine resonates a lot with you and Grissom's that yummy William Petersen, so bring on the fic, please.**** You can also reverse this -shipping on the basis of what you don't want. Hate Rose, ship Doctor/Martha; hate Sara, ship Grissom/Catherine.

**** Highly rhetorical examples.

Need can be a bit trickier to define, because as mentioned above, how is what a character needs decided and by who? Does the Doctor need someone to make him face the loss of Gallifrey or doesn't he? You could potentially make arguments for both. But if you go with what you think a character needs, do you ship a little differently than if you ship by what you think the character wants/you want?

I do think shippy fanfic can be very different depending on what approach you take. I've certainly observed some differences in my own writing depending on what approach I choose to take. Fics going by need can be a bit darker and not as flattering on the characters always, fics going by want can have more elements of wish-fulfilment.*****

**** Can. I'm not saying they do. Skill of the writer, theme of the story and many other factors also determine what sort of story gets written.

So can what approach to shipping you have lead to differences in fandom, maybe even potential conflicts? What do you think? Obviously, other factors can also play into who you ship - eyecandy-factor, lack-of-alternatives, friends-ship-it, fanfic and what-not. (And mustn't forget trusty I-just-want-porn-any-porn-dammit.) How would you define yourself? Opinions, thoughts, arguments, porn, hit me with it.******

***** Yeah, I'm trying to understand why shipping can lead to such wanky wars and violent vendettas again. You know, apart from the fact that people will always dislike other people. There's always some hate, it just needs a reason. Shipping might be a convenient cause that isn't oh Odin, I just loathe you, you oozing fungus of repulsiveness WHY ARE YOU IN MY FANDOM STAB STABBITY BEHEAD.

Meanwhile, Doctor/Rose, Doctor/Martha, Doctor/Rose/Martha, CSI Fic of Many Ships pornfic previews here. In the interest of fairness.

Comments

[ericasj.livejournal.com]

For me it's the need instead of the want. If I went with what I think they want, I'd go with C/W all the way.

[ericasj.livejournal.com]

But come to think of it, I don't think I've ever thought about that until you asked. lol. I probably just love the dynamic between the two characters which might present my idea of an ideal relationship. :)

[vandonovan.livejournal.com]

I usually have a favorite character and ship toward what I think s/he would like. I don't ship any of the pairings you mentioned, so I'll point out Jamie instead. While I strongly ship Doctor/Jamie, I have to give a nod towards Jamie/Victoria, because I'm canonically convinced he was in love with her. So, I find that I like Victoria perhaps more than I might otherwise, solely based on the fact that Jamie was in love with her. Hence, I want the Jamie/Victoria pairing to happen, because that'd make Jamie happy, and since Jamie is my favorite character, I want him to be happy. (This does not, obviously, stop me from shipping Doctor/Jamie, however, and since there aren't Doctor/Jamie vs. Jamie/Victoria shipping wars, I suppose it's a bit of a moot point.) I have, however, noticed myself doing this though. I will ship my favorite character with whomever HE wants, because it will make him happy, regardless of whether or not like I the character he likes. (I hate to use an anime pairing, but in Ranma 1/2 I 'shipped Ryouga with Akane. I hated the character of Akane, but he was canonically in love with her. So I'd concoct ways in which she realized how much better he was for her than Ranma, and she'd fall for him, etc.) This is only notable, because although he was in love with Akane, she was not good for him. So it was definitely a case of want over need.

In regards to Doctor/Rose, Doctor/Martha . . . I would probably again go with need vs. want. But that's tricky, because I think Nine needed Rose and Ten wanted Rose, and I think Ten needs Martha (and might not want her). I think Nine/Rose was a great pairing, but I think Ten/Rose was dangerous and unstable, doomed to fail. So that points towards me shipping toward what a character needs, not what he wants.


I really don't think you can get to the bottom of shipping and why people ship what they ship. There are so many ships that are insanely popular and make NO FUCKING SENSE that I've given up. (point in case: Jayne/River, from Firefly fandom. Largest fandom pairing by far, absolutely no canonical leanings towards it whatsoever. Draco and Harry have more in common, as at least they're classmates.)

[preachelectric]

Jayne/River, from Firefly fandom. Largest fandom pairing by far, absolutely no canonical leanings towards it whatsoever.

I think it might have to do with a few things like River trying to kill Jayne a few times, not to mention the 'I can kill you with my brain" comment. I don't really see it happening though (I reckon Kaylee/Jayne will happen before Rayne does).

[vandonovan.livejournal.com]

I guess I just don't see how "I want to murder you" equals lasting long term healthy relationship. I can understand a fringe following for the pairing, most definitely. I cannot, however, understand why it is, by and large, the predominate pairing in the show.

[b2wm.livejournal.com]

Disclaimer: this is coming from someone who reads a lot of Rayne, says to herself "But why is the feng le gone? Since when was Jayne made of fluffybunnies?" and then goes off to write hate!sex!Rayne-pr0n.

Far as I can see, the popularity comes from a series of parameters:
A. It doesn't mess with the canon OTPs. If one's like me and for the full fandom orgy, this wouldn't matter, but then one'd be writing as much Zoe/Kaylee and Wash/Inara as River/Jayne, and wouldn't affect the ratios way too much. If one is for the canon ships, though, they're only three fanon ships that fit with the rest of the crew.
B. River and Jayne are pretty, whereas not many people appreciate the good Book. (Besides, they're the vows to think of...) This pretty much limits the "ideal" One Big Happy Shippy Ship to Rayne.
C. The canon relationships have their own established coping skills. Simon sticks his foot in his mouth. Wash freaks out easily. Zoe rarely says what's on her mind. Mal and Inara live in that river in Egypt. If a writer is looking for that boatful of maple syrup, none of these ships precisely lends itself to pure sap, though they all may have their moments. With the unestablished fanon J/R, though, the writer can get as sugary as she wants. (My fandom needs an insulin dispenser.)
D. Getting back to the original debate, Rayneshippers generally also tend to look at it as a matter of need: River gets somebody steady, and Jayne gets somebody more mentally mature. (Hey, I never said the needs would be met with the canonical versions...)

All that said, I don't see Rayne as ever equalling lasting, long-term, or healthy, though I wouldn't be opposed to a certain twist upon it...

When I ship, (not quite so seriously in Firefly, Potter, or Who, though I can occasionally get rabid in LotR or, more rarely, Discworld,) it tends to be for what the characters want first and need second. Want establishes a pairing, and need keeps them together.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

Personally, the ships I tend to go for have nothing to do with either need or want, but either they have a character dynamic (canonically shippy or not) that interests me, or they are characters I think would have an interesting dynamic.

That said, in shippy terms I'm entirely certain how relevent this is since I loathe the concepts of OTPs and solemates and the like, and tend to go for multishipping.

I do think shippy fanfic can be very different depending on what approach you take. I've certainly observed some differences in my own writing depending on what approach I choose to take. Fics going by need can be a bit darker and not as flattering on the characters always, fics going by want can have more elements of wish-fulfilment.

Random note, I will often like fics, even of ships I don't normally like, if they take a less fluffy and nice perspective on things. Despite not being a fan of Doctor/Rose, fics that acknowledge the inherant fucked up ness of it tend to go over better with me.

[preachelectric]

I will read any ship. With wants and needs, it varies. Sometimes characters will demand their wants, and their needs will be shoved in the dark somewhere.

I'm an avid Harry/Draco shipper, and well, it's not like they need or want each other (they detest each other in canon). It's more like I want them together, and I need them together. In the HP fandom, shipping wars are outrageous. Who Hermione should end up with. Ron or Harry (personally I say threesome - it'll solve all shipping problems). The Harmonians (Harry/Hermione) were so over the top, that even when J.K said in an interview that she'd been dropping anvil sized hints, and that Hermione and Ron obviously belong together, they claimed she had no idea what she was talking about. The author having no idea about her work? Much amusement ensued. **coughdelusionalcough**

I think everyone goes into fandom loving certain characters, wanting to be certain characters, and wanting characters to end up with someone whom the fan likes. It's when people don't want to accept the possibility other ships that things get ugly.

[larakailyn.livejournal.com]

I don't ship want or need but, like Drak, on the character dynamics and whether I think they work well together. I tend to like characters together whose traits and personalities complement each other, which may go to need in some way, but I never tend to think of it in those sort of terms. Sometimes, these characters end up being canon shipwise (sometimes oftentimes after a LONG time), sometimes they don't.

To illustrate, I liked the Nine/Rose dynamic - I felt there was a lot there. But Ten/Rose fell apart for me completely because of the way they acted around each other. Their dynamic was just such that I couldn't continue to ship them unless several things changed in their personalities and actions. Obviously, though, both incarnations of the Doctor wanted/liked Rose.

[everysecondtues.livejournal.com]

Shipping or slashing with me is something that tends to vary. My biggest reasons tend toward the following:

1) Do I like the character? For example, I will read most fic in SGA fandom if it has Rodney McKay featured prominently.

2) Do I like the interaction between the characters/ or possible interactions between the characters' personality types? For example, some people are drawn toward rivals/people with antagonistic relationships (e.g. Draco and Harry or Sasuke and Naruto). I'm . . . not actually certain what my usual type for this is, or if I even have one. I think that it's more for me what types I don't like and if a possible relationship appeals to me. At this point in my life, age differences and power structures factor into it, as well (too great a difference in either and it's just not something I'm interested in).

3) Writing quality. For some reason, writing quality for certain pairings seems to be at roughly the same level with very little variation. Sometimes this means that there is excellent quality fic and I so I will read more of that pairing, get comfortable with that pairing, and the whole process perpetuates itself. In other cases, I will read a few that are such terrible quality that I never touch anything with that pairing again unless a favorite author has written it. (I use this same process for doujinshi and fandoms.

While I do tend to follow certain pairings, though, I'm not a believer in the "OTP omgs i cant bleive u ship sum1 else u blasfimar" type of outlook. If it's well-written, believable, and doesn't hit one of my squicks, there's a chance I'll read it. If it has characters I like, the chances increase. *g* Anything that was reasonably well-written, humorous, and had Martha, Ten, and Jack going on some sort of adventure, for instance, would likely get a read by me. I hold high hopes that canon will fulfill this wish for me, though.

[chicklet73.livejournal.com]

You know, I've never thought about that - For me, it's not a conscious thought of what a character wants or needs, but a pairing I think work together. If it feels right, if it makes me happy to watch them interact, if I think they have chemistry or could imagine them together, then I ship them.

Many people ship Apollo/Starbuck from BSG. I love those characters, but I just can't see them together in my mind, no matter how much I think they want each other. (not saying that those who DO ship them are wrong, just saying that I can't wrap my imagination around it)

can what approach to shipping you have lead to differences in fandom, maybe even potential conflicts?

I think it definitely could - if two people have differing philosophies, and one or both have the kind of personality which assumes that anyone who doesn't agree with them is an idiot, than yes, there could be plenty of conflict.

[jenbachand.livejournal.com]

My shipping tends to have the same theme, older & younger. I think I've only ever shipped one pairing that were the same age, other than some trio fics over at HP.

Of course BD is 10 years older than me, so I have a certain mindset towards the older/younger pairings. ;)

I think it has to do with mindset of the reader/writer & what their needs & wants are, more than the actual characters. You chose the character you best identify with and run with it. Who they are shipped with that you read/write is further set with your desires or experiences.

[saxihighlandck.livejournal.com]

Very intreging I agree.

I'm just spreading around a new thing for the CSI fandom.

csi_fandom

It's the attempt to get Gen/Het/Slash writers to work and write together, I thought you would be interestead.

*ponderates*

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I think Four/Romana has want and need -- they need their own kind, they need impetus to change, and they want to spend time together. Ten/Romana, though, probably interests me more fannish because I can see them thinking they need each other, and wanting that to be their only need, and it just so wouldn't be. Two people, too alike in indignity.

Ten/Rose? I think he wants to need her, so fic-wise I end up swimming against the flow and going for the underlying raw bits. The need to want something? Whereas Ten/Martha is so far more about the needing and so I have more time for watching people put the comfort-layers over it. Which is to say they need to be less openly fucked up for me to want to fuck them up more. :)

Generally I like the play between want and need, though I don't tend to approach it on those terms. The conflicts of desires, needs, instincts and reason.

[mickat24.livejournal.com]

Well, here's my commentary:

I think most people start off writing (and reading) fanfiction to fulfill a want. They WANT to see Rose and the Doctor together, etc, whatever their reasons. BUT: the really skilled writers, the ones who have progressed beyond that wish fulfillment stage and have grown as writers (and who have a more developed sense of the characters they write), will write (or at least can write) what the characters need. Because that takes skill and depth and experience, which amateur writers like me can only dream of. They can delve into the depths and heights of humanity, and portray the complexity appropriate to reality (and hence the darkness) - which takes considerable talent and skill. I'd certainly say you're one of those writers.

[starsong24.livejournal.com]

I generally 'ship based on who seems inclined towards who in Canon. If two characters are acting around each other in such away that it seems the attraction is mutual, I 'ship. Also, occasionally, if something is hinted but not stated. Or if a couple is outright there.

There was one book I read in which I started 'shipping one couple ten chapters before they got together. So, if it looks like it's heading for Canon.

Exception to this is porn, wherin I will ship whoever I dang well want, just to see how it turns out.

[falena]

Very interesting post. I look forward to reading all the replies.
I must admit I never thought of shipping in these terms.

I reckon a good portion of fandom ships on the basis of what they want becuse they tend to identify with X character of the X/Y pairing. I'm sure I'm partially guilty of this myself. But that's not the only reason.

The ony prerequiste I can think of, as far shipping's concerned, is that I must like both characters individually first. For example, for a certain period Veronica/Duncan was the canon pairing in that fandom. I never shipped those two together, though, for the simple reason that I couldn't stand Duncan.

Other than this, I usually go for pairings that are some sort of variation of the 'star-crossed lovers' theme or the 'opposites attract' one.

And, last but not least, I need canon to back up (at least partially) my pairing. That is, I could never ship, say, Snape/James Potter since they hate each other's guts in canon.

As for DW, I agree completely with larakilyn. Martha/Ten, instead, completely falls in the need category, IMO. Ten needs somebody like Martha, Martha Likes Ten but Ten obviously doesn't like her as much as he liked Rose.

Why do you ship, instead? Maybe I missed your explanation, if so just ignore me, I blame it on my post-exam fried brain.

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

Well, my ships all seem to end up basically being the run of the mill canonically acknowledged ones, but my supporting them stems from an initial sense of 'rightness' when watching the shows. My attachment to ships waxes and wanes based on what I see as the wants and needs and potential of the characters. By potential I mean the side of characters that we get to see occasionally, but which the writers frequently sacrifice to the expediency of their own personal agendas.

For example, House. Most people would probably agree that he needs someone who's strong enough to keep from getting trampled in a relationship. Many people feel that Cameron (the other half of my preferred ship) isn't strong enough to stand up to House, even though we've seen her give as good as she gets, because the majority of the writers seem to prefer meek Cameron. I ship House/Cameron because she is what he wants and she has the potential to be what he needs.

[ashiya.livejournal.com]

For me, I ship the characters who have the "right" (subjectively speaking) chemistry and interaction. Although I'm primarily a Grissom/Sara shipper in the CSI fandom, I can ship slash pairings (say Sara/Sofia) because as long as there is that "right" type of chemistry and interaction, I can accept it and write for it. I can see Nick/Sara or Greg/Sara working, but perhaps not as easily as I see Grissom/Sara. (This is why I support the 'everyone shag everyone' theory because everyone wins.)

Sara and Grissom shagged it up, and many who were in favour of other pairings claimed Sara wasn't what Grissom needed.
This argument always makes me wonder. Even if Sara isn't what Grissom needed, who is to say that [insert CSI/lab tech/other character name here] is what Grissom or Sara needs? Do they really have to "need" the other to get together? Does "need" make a relationship go longer? Make it better or worse? Is there something inherently flawed/inappropriate about just wanting to be with a person?

Maybe I'm just sounding a tad bit irritated and bewildered because GSR gets a fair amount of flack.

[robin-2370-hood.livejournal.com]

I'm don't think I ship based on need or want. I mainly ship based on how the characters act around each other. Most of my ships have become canon, but a few haven't. I'm weak, and so mostly just listen to what the writers tell me.

Wow, that was unhelpful. Just realize that I'm in the minority, and very strange.

[agent-jet.livejournal.com]

Hmm, interesting discussion. I don't think I ship on either want or need. I ship on could. Fer instance, could event A lead to characters B and C hooking up? Could they overcome issues D,E and F? Would character G stop them? Or relationship H?

Or something like that, anyway. *g*

[highwindpav.livejournal.com]

GRR, LJ ate my comment.

So I'll sum up--for me it's mostly need-based, but I do 'ship want-based also, just not as strongly. As well as guilty pleasure this has no basis in canon but the writers make it so dang much fun.