Ponderings on ships and writing (with confused sports metaphores)

[misscam]

Good Odin, how dumb are you after having been caught plagiarising more than twice, you go and do it AGAIN?!

Impressive stupidity - or dedicated trolling. *pats poor CSI fandom*

So, having slept through a slight Rose versus Martha ladida in Doctor Who fandom, my question to fandom is this - Does it really bother you to have a fic with both Doctor/Rose and Doctor/Martha in? Speak now or forever hold your whinebreath.

Yeah, I feel like writing it sometimes and I'm curious about how others feel. I like both, I think, though not necessarily for the same reasons. But liking the one doesn't stop me liking the other. Maybe I'm just greedy. Probably, yeah. Give me my ships, for I want pornfic. Or something.

But sometimes I think part of my attraction to what characters I like and not like is a lot in what I can do with them in writing, not always what's in the show. Does that make sense? Even when I'm not writing, I spend a lot of time thinking about writing and maybe I've conditition my brain.

So I like Rose, because there's a lot of things I can write about Rose. I like Martha, because there are a lot of different things I can write about Martha. I like the Doctor, because he gives me a headache trying to think like an alien. Bastard. And I like ships, because writing those lets me fiddle with ideas of sex, love, power dynamics, characterisation, hurt, rejection, ideals, fantasies and a whole range of other issues. And also there can be porn.

It's not all about writing, of course, because there's a lot I could use Jack to explore (and ship with!) and still I don't. I can't really seem to like him - not that I dislike him either. He's tennis. He isn't golf, because golf makes me want to throw the balls at the people playing it. He isn't football, because football I will arrange my life around at times. He's tennis. I will watch tennis if there's nothing else whatsoever to do and maybe if someone bribed me, but I'll look very bored while at it. Eh, tennis.

That possibly makes Doctor/Rose biathlon and Doctor/Martha athletics, both of which I watch and enjoy but are quite different sports. (Nothing is football. Football is too awesome to be anything but football.) Grissom/Sara is handball, which I enjoyed playing but not so much watching. (Yeah, I like writing it more than watching it. Hmm.) And so I could probably go on and I better not, because it's confused enough as it is.

But the thing is, it's very hard to put sports up against each other because they vary in what skill they require, what their focus is and how they play out. And that's often how I feel about ships.

Is my reasoning here making sense to anyone, or am I just weird in how I approach my shipping and likes? And you got any ships that are like sports?

*continues writing Doctor/Rose, Doctor/Martha to be contrary*

Comments

[cedara]

I don't mind fics with both ships as long as the fics aren't of the mine-is-better-than-yours kind. I've stopped reading T&C just because of that and now only read selected authors on the D/R pairing.

And I've even shipped Doctor/Rose once! *sigh*

[neadods.livejournal.com]

*points upwards* I like Doctor/Rose, I like Doctor/Martha, I'm writing both still, although not in the same story. But I don't want to read Take 47,923 of "Martha reunites the Twoo Wuvers" nor am I all that interested in Take 1,593 of "Rose gets it, he's got someone new."

Treat them like separate characters and not a plot device to further either ship, and I'm completely there.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I'm not fond of Person A reunites Person B and C in general, I think. It so very easily becomes daft and really, people tend to have better things to do than match up people that should be able to figure it out themselves.

That's not to say a good writer can sometimes make it work, of course.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

That's not to say a good writer can sometimes make it work, of course.

A good writer can make the most insane (or inane or both) premise work, but Sturgeon's law applies double to fanfic.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Totally not fond of the my-ship-is-better-than-yours in any form, really. But I don't want fics to treat them as exactly the same thing either, because different people will make for different ways. It's just that different doesn't have to mean better or worse.

*still ships, but doesn't read much fanfic nowadays*

[falena]

I wouldn't mind Doctor/Rose and Doctor/Martha in the same story, as long as both ships are treated fairly.
Though, I guess that would be hard to write, since the whole point of Doctor/Rose originally is Rose> everyone else, AFAIK.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Would depend how you focused it, I think. I suppose the trickiest thing would to try to keep one's own bias the hell out, really.

[falena]

I reckon you'd do a god job. Nordic fairness and all.

I was thinking about the shipping as sport comparison and this is what I've come up:

Grissom/Sara. They're a bit like chess. You just wait for someone to do the next move for ages. Not exactly my kind of sport, but keeps your interest going all the same. Also you can suspend the match, put away the board and take it back out start again from where you left, months later. Sounds really like a perfect metaphor for my relationship with GSR.

Doctor/Master is men skiing. Hotness factor all the way. :P

I can't think of anything fitting for Doctor/Martha or Doctor/Rose. Woes.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I used to play a lot of chess. Now I only play it in WoW. (Don't ask.)

I'm almost tempting to say Doctor/Rose is like cycling. Because while I enjoy watching it - and ogling - there are some people I'd like to get the hell out of the sport.

Then again, that's more a fandom thing in general. To every fandom its batshit - to HP, a truckload.

[falena]

I can't play chess. I'm too dumb (and have a very short attention span).

I can't wait for HP 7 to be out. Fandom will go boom, with lots of fireworks and other special effects. I trust you will keep me informed.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Would I keep such amusing batshittery away from you?

Actually, the book is out like six days before I come visit you, so we can laugh at wankery together.

[canadian-kazz.livejournal.com]

I like those two ships as well. It makes me sad when people get all blood-thirsty about them though.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Ship wars seems to happen in almost every fandom where you have more than one option.

[canadian-kazz.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's true.

Still... I think I'd enjoy a fic that had both ships in it. :)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

:)

I suspect a lot would maybe just read the parts that interested them, but ah well.

[honorh.livejournal.com]

Your icon makes me want to lick my computer screen.

[everysecondtues.livejournal.com]

Does it really bother you to have a fic with both Doctor/Rose and Doctor/Martha in?
Not at all. The only thing that would bother me would be execution of it (i.e. that thing which several people have already mentioned). I have completely different reasons for liking the characters and completely different reasons for liking them together. Martha is not and would not be a replacement for Rose. Her awesomeness is completely separate from that.

At this point, I would be more likely to read Martha/Doctor than Doctor/Rose, but that's not saying much, because my love of Martha is boundless. I'm probably more likely to read Martha/Rose than Rose/Doctor. Then again, I haven't really been a large participant of this fandom, so really it would probably be more accurate to say that I am most likely to read what you write, but my preferences fall more along the lines of anything Martha at this moment.

After I see the next episode, though, my fandom habits may change.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*nods* See, I think I'm a fan of the Doctor than of Rose and Martha, which probably makes it easier for me to change between the two fairly easily.

I can understand people who are mainly fans of Rose having a hard time liking a ship that doesn't include her, certainly.

[everysecondtues.livejournal.com]

I prefer the Doctor, too, but if I want more of him, I can fulfill that with just watching older episodes. There are still so many that I haven't seen and so many in general that don't have as much of a desire to read fic concentrating solely on him. There has to be something else to draw me in.

I'm not really of the OTP sort, so I've always found it rather easy to switch between pairings. While there are some pairings I prefer and some I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, it's usually more about the actual characters, I think.

[rhipowered.livejournal.com]

No, it doesn't bother me. It's hawt. Especially if there is Rose/Martha in there somewhere, never mind the impossibility...


And I would do bad things for you to be writing GSR again.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

What's a little impossibility in fanfic?

Oh, I seem to do a GSR story once in a blue moon. I have vaguely been writing on a Grissom/Catherine Catherine/Warrick Grissom/Sara fic (it covers a lot of years), but I don't know if I'll ever manage to finish it. And I vaguely have another "Life After"-esque story in my head, but I'm a little hesitant to write something so draining again. But I'm sure there will be something written sooner or later.

[violetisblue.livejournal.com]

"Does it really bother you to have a fic with both Doctor/Rose and Doctor/Martha in?"

No, I just don't really have any interest in Rose as a character, so less likely to read it purely on that basis (and as someone pointed out, so many of the "Rose and Martha" stories really have Rose center stage). But denying that Doctor/Rose ever actually existed or happened would be just, well, dumb. IMO.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

So it's sort of "not my main interest, but I won't have a fit if it's in the receipe with other things I enjoy" sort of deal, then?

[violetisblue.livejournal.com]

Exactly. If it's a good story anyway, especially something very plotty, I certainly wouldn't skip it because of her presence.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm a bit the same. If the story is good, there are very few pairings I won't read.

On the other hand, I do tend to actively seek out fics I might like that has my pairings, whereas others I will more tend to read when I stumble across them.

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

I'm not a big fan of Doctor/Martha as a ship ship, mostly because I see it being very one-sided/lop-sided. Of course that could make for some very kinky fic, but in general it's not something I'd choose to read. However, Rose is canonically gone and people move on, so I have nothing against the shippers.

As for fic with both Doctor/Rose and Doctor/Martha bothering me, it would really depend on how it was done. Fic that brings Rose back to rub either woman's face in the other relationship would bother me. Fic that stayed more within canon and had the Doctor moving on wouldn't.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Some of us seem to choose to move on and not at the same time, so to speak. I like the new, but also like the old. Yay greediness.

Fic that brings Rose back to rub either woman's face in the other relationship would bother me.

Hoo yeah. Fics that get all bashing on female characters in subtle or unsubtle ways tend to rise my blood pressure. Ugh.

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

I like greediness. Though greediness for me involves Jack in the equation more than Martha. And my not moving on is a preference for Nine, though Ten is adorable and enticing in his own way. ;-)

Bashing in general is annoying; bashing to prop up a ship just pisses me off.

[chicklet73.livejournal.com]

It makes perfect sense to me. I love both Rose and Martha; I love writing them both, and I love writing each of them with the Doctor, for completely different reasons. And you're right - it's like flexing different muscles, using different skills.

Sometimes it reflects the mood I'm in.

That said, I'd never considered writing anything with the Doctor, Martha, AND Rose in it. That kind of breaks my brain, but I'd love to see what you'd do with that combination...

[--kali--.livejournal.com]

I feel DW has broken my brain. I read you thinking Jack is like tennis - the first thing that pops int my head: new balls please? Why head? Why?

[lookingforwater.livejournal.com]

At the moment I refuse to have anything to do with Doctor/Rose because the Rosefen/Holy Church of St. Rose have almost surpassed door-to-door missionaries on the list of Things Likely To Drive Me Homicidal.

I don't care if it's petty and childish. Nanny-nanny-boo-boo.

[honorh.livejournal.com]

HEATHEN!!!!! *holds up Seal of Rassilon*

:-P

[lookingforwater.livejournal.com]

*counters with the Kender Spoon of Turning*

[wendymr.livejournal.com]

You have to write what works for you - it's as simple as that. If it doesn't work in your head, it won't work on screen. If it works in your head, it's more likely to come across plausible on screen. So, for you, Jack doesn't work - he doesn't appeal to you and you can't ship him. Martha does work for you and you can ship her.

Would I read Doctor/Rose and Doctor/Martha? Done well and by an author I trust, yes. Would I enjoy the Doctor/Martha parts as much as the Doctor/Rose? I won't know until I try it. I'm really ambivalent about Martha, unfortunately - I wanted to like her, tried to love her, stayed open to shipping her... and, just as Jack doesn't do it for you, she doesn't do it for me. By now, 12 episodes in, I should feel the love, but it just didn't happen. With Rose, it was there by three or four episodes in. With Jack, definitely by Bad Wolf if not before. So, while I've read some Doctor/Martha ship and smutfics, including some that are very well written, I have a more detached reaction to them than to fics with ships I can see and believe in (Doctor/Rose, Doctor/Jack - and even more so after Utopia - Doctor/Rose/Jack). I don't hate them (unless there's Rose-bashing; and equally I dislike Doctor/Rose fics which Martha-bash), but I don't love them either.

[jvgymnast.livejournal.com]

If it doesn't work in your head, it won't work on screen. If it works in your head, it's more likely to come across plausible on screen.
Well put.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

I guess my problem is that based on this season, I see no indication that Doctor/Martha is even possible - at least from the Doctor's side. So I find Doctor/Martha to be unbelievable. I suppose that a really good writer could make it believable.

I don't care if other people want to write Doctor/Martha, or Doctor/Rose into Doctor/Martha stories, as long as they're clearly marked. That's great. But I won't be reading them. I could go for some good Doctor & Martha gen stories, though.

[honorh.livejournal.com]

I don't have anything particular against Ten/Martha, it just leaves me cold. When they're onscreen together, I don't feel like there's anything even remotely 'shippable about them, save for the pretty. So no, I don't read Ten/Martha because it simply doesn't interest me. *shrug* But that doesn't mean I'm offended that people write it, and I'll gladly read Ten & Martha genfic. Doctor/Jack without Rose does nothing for me either, actually, and Jack's 'shippable with everything up to and including breakfast cereal.

Now, Martha/Jack, on the other hand . . .

For being out of touch with the fandom, I can get rather verbose...

[b2wm.livejournal.com]

Once again, I'm so behind on Who that Martha/Doctor just leaves me going "who the what now?" but the "my ship is better than yours" theory has probably got a parallel in every fandom. The characters involved don't even have to be after the same person: Arwen vs. Luthien, anyone? There was something to that affect posted on discussion_realm, and once the obligatory links had been posted, I summed up my thoughts on it this way:

You know, whenever I see this comparision, though, I can't help but wonder if it's really an apples and oranges / Kaylee and Zoe / Narcissa and Bellatrix / Magrat and Angua / Finduilas and Eowyn parallel.

You can't really expect the wet hen to have the same affect on people as the werewolf, even if said wet hen does have some witchcraft skills. Those just aren't as friggin' scary as the smile is. Same goes for being a half-mortal vs. a half-maia.

It doesn't mean that the significant other is loved any less because a girl might happen to be better trained with a wrench than a shotgun, but it does mean that she'll have to use more wiles and less brute force in his defense, so if she's got the available brute force in the form of brothers and friends, it's no shame to send them in her place. Luthien was lower on resources than Arwen was, so she had to go in there herself.

That said, I could see Denethor/Finduilas as sort of an Academic Quiz/Jeopardy-type game: all mind warfare, kinda nerdy to do, usually viewed as done either really well or with depressing stupidity, and I was good at it in high school.

From Potterverse, I see Ginny/Harry as lacrosse: I don't understand all the rules and it looks like it hurts, but the sweaty moments are kinda fun to watch.
Draco/Harry seems like wrestling: not my thing, but I know people that are into it. I wouldn't do it voluntarily, but it's fun to see every now and then and it's got painful homoeroticism out the wahzoo going for it.
For me, Black/Lupin and Lupin/Tonks are like swimming and diving: good enough on their own, but they fit so much better together.
Ron and Hermione are like basketball: I like seeing it, I'll play even if I'm not that good, and there's always a lot more contact and violence than you were expecting.