Hating that character/pairing - or hating the fans?

[misscam]

So, those of you that have an active dislike of a character or a pairing in fandom, do you think your dislike is fuelled as much by fans of it as the thing itself?

I bring before you a hypothetical situation.

In your neighbourhood lives Miss Enthusiastic, who has a cat. You don't really like cats as much, because you're a dog person. But to each their own, right? However, your neighbour is very proud of her cat. She keeps coming around with it, talk about it, have a t-shirt with a picture of the cat - it's all cat, cat, cat. She can't understand why you just won't love her cat. You find yourself starting to resent that damn cat, because after all, if it went away, your neighbour wouldn't annoy you so much. You see the cat, you think about what bliss it would be if a semi-trailer hit it.

Others in your neighbourhood - Mister Casual and his wife - also has a cat, but is much more tolerable about it. But because Miss Enthusiastic has so soured your cat reactions, you find yourself narrowing your eyes at their cat, too. You begin to realise you hate cats. Really, really, really hate cats. Wish all cats would go away - or never have evolved at all. Cats have ruined your neighbourhood.

Miss Enthusiatic gets another cat.

Three days later, you get a bulldog and go to war.

Replace neighbourhood with fandom, cats and dogs with ships - do you think dislike of what is essentially people can fuel dislike of something you are to start with just fairly 'meh' about? (Or entertain a mild dislike - and perhaps even sadder - or a liking for to begin with.) Because I look at some of the vitrolic in fandom directed at ships or characters and I wonder if fictional things can really get that much passion up. But other humans being, I know can. (I know for myself that my irrational hatred of Vålerenga, a football club, is fuelled entirely by behaviour of the fans on some matches I've been.)

And for the record, this is not about one particular fandom - I've seen what I think is this happening in several fandoms.

Of course, there doesn't need to be just one cause for a dislike to form and stay firmly rooted - so perhaps it is a combination of things that is most likely of all. In which case, what part do you think it plays? Do you have dislike that when you think about it, is definitely fuelled by fans, if not just that?

Opine on me please?


I love cats and get very enthusiatic about mine, a cuddly whiskered furball of love. I probably get annoying about this. Oh yeah.

Comments

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't necessarily say fans of a particular character so much as fandom reaction to them, as minor a distinction as that may be: in Buffy fandom a couple of years ago it wasn't possible to discuss anything on some boards without it descending into a fight over Spike, since many many people rabidly loved him and many many people rabidly hated him. Even if it was a thread about Giles, or the season's big bad, it'd turn into being All About Spike. He started out as my favourite character, but since I like lots of characters and ships, it got to the point where I just wished all sides - pro or anti - would shut the hell up and talk about something else.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

This didn't make you write fanfic devoted to humiliating, abusing and hating on Spike though, right?

I've heard tales of the great Spike split in Buffy fandom. Sounds nasty, right enough.

[fantasyprone.livejournal.com]

I think it works both ways. I have been so annoyed by fans that I've gone completely off pairings, but I've also been swayed to like some by particularly well-written fics and rants.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*nods* That's a good point. It's not always the shows I love the most I get into fandom for, and this isn't always because it doesn't have a fandom.

[belegcuthalion.livejournal.com]

There are pairings in the LOTR- and HP-fandom I really dislike, but the best thing I can do about that is to avoid the stories written about them... and not necessarily the people writing those tales. Some of them are rather nice, and they have found friendly words and honest praise about stories and pairings I have written myself. And normally I'm completely able to behave - by keeping my opinion for myself. *smiles*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but I think fandom size matters a bit here. I mean, LotR fandom is so big you can find your own corners with people of similar interests - in smaller fandoms, there might be just one comm and you're forced to share space much more with people you might not find so nice.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Yes, reaction from other fans can (and has) shoved me from having an opinion to becoming hypersensitive to an issue to furious about an issue to picking a side and a gun in a fanwar on an issue.

I'm more pissed off about the "rip open reality and bring Rose back" T-shirts than I am about the way Martha was treated onscreen, for example - the latter is something to have an opinion about; the former directly says "fuck your opinion."

[misscam.livejournal.com]

What were those t-shirts? Did I miss something?

Fanwars do seem to favour bazookas quite a lot of the time. Huge firepower, shame about what was in the way.

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

My personal feelings on a character or ship aren't personally affected because I like what I like and possess the magic scroll button that allows me to roll right on by posts that annoy me.

What I do find vexing in DW fandom is that, as Doyle mentioned in Buffy fandom, any and all meta conversations are automatically filtered through ship lenses and are dismissed out of hand by one rabid faction or another based on which camp you've chosen to plant your flag. Even worse, any comment that doesn't support the theory that character A or B is The Most Awesome Character Ever brands you a de facto supporter of the opposition.

It's insane.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

And you don't get into a ship comm if you're a member of an opposing one, right?

The DW race debate does seem to have become ship-filtered and totally derailed into something else at times. I don't know what to think about it all anymore. Some of it has clearly gotten personal, at which point rational debate takes a backseat.

[everysecondtues.livejournal.com]

In some ways, this is true for me. There is a specific person I know who, if he likes and talks about something I've never seen/read before, tends to make me wary of/have a prejudice to things before I even find out more about it. If he tells me I absolutely must check something out, I find myself going out of my way to avoid it. It takes several other close, trusted friends with similar tastes to undo the damage. I realize it's irrational, but I find I can't help it.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hear you. I fear people pushing Veronica Mars on me a bit like that helped me so not like the show, in the end.

[20thcenturyvole.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's definitely how it works for me. But the positive and negative reactions of other people to that... er, animal... colour my judgement too. I mean, say I was on friendly terms with Mr. and Mrs. Casual, and after being soured to cats, one day brought up - as delicately as I could - the matter of Miss Enthusiastic. If Mr. and Mrs. Casual said, "Oh, her. Um, yes - look, we like cats, we really do. But the way she likes them just kind of makes my skin crawl. I'm sure I've seen the woman eat cat food." - Well, I'm pretty sure my opinion would start to change, and I'd shift my hatred from cats to people like Miss Enthusiastic. And I'd feel better, because I know it's not the damn cat's fault that its owner is so damned annoying.

On the downside (and, I know, I'm as impressionable as a dollop of warm wax) - say before I moved into that neighborhood, I'd had some dog-loving friends who maybe knew Miss Enthusiastic and told me all about her and how much they'd like that cat to go to sleep under a garbage truck's front tire. The first time Miss Enthusiastic came round, cooing about how her bitsy boopsy caught a widdle birdy and puked it up under the couch, my preconditioned dislike would go FOOOOM and I'd kick her out of the house. I might never speak to Mr. and Mrs. Casual because they are icky cat-lovers OMG, and it would take me a long time to reach equilibrium, if I did at all.

(As an example, to make this incredibly extended metaphor make sense: my first experience of fandom in any capacity was the Spike forums on a James Marsters fansite. For a year before I discovered real fandom, I lived and breathed that site, and got really, really in to Spike/Buffy, caught up in the squee - and also caught up in the vitriolic hatred for Buffy/Angel 'shippers, all of whom were clearly stupid fluffy idiots who read too many trashy romance novels and Anne Rice books and were clinging desperately to the past. It has taken me years, and I still wouldn't read a Buffy/Angel 4eva kind of fic unless it was recced up and down fandom, but I know now that my fourteen-year-old self clearly needed a bop on the head and a lesson about other people's squee.)

Does any of that make sense?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I love you a little right now for taking up my very silly neighbourhood example. :D

I frequently go "oh HER" about people in fandom. Quite sad, isn't it? There is someone in particular - NOT in DW fandom, I stress to add - who acts all I Speak For the Ship and whenever she does that, I want to throw whales at her. Because she totally does not speak for me or quite a lot of others I know and she's driving people to dislike the ship in general. GAH.

And yeah, the power of pre-formed opinions shouldn't be underestimated. I mean, I once got friendly with a young American girl. At one point, religion got brought up and I mentioned I was atheist. She was shocked. She had been taught all atheists were hateful, nasty people. She'd never gotten friendly with me if she had known.

(I was a Buffy/Angel shipper when I was quite young - never in fandom really, just when watching the show.)

You maketh sense, yes.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

Also, the endless, tedious bashing of Gwen in Torchwood fandom for getting in the way of the boyslash being an OMGSLUT made me determined to like a character I was previously indifferent about.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Some of the nastiest attacks on female characters I've seen come from women in fandom writing slash. This makes me a bit sad.

[aervir.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, my opinions concerning certain characters or pairings are definitely influenced by the fandom equivalents of Miss Enthusiastic the crazy catlady. The three most obvious examples I can think of in my case are Snape, Spike and Rose.

I'm not even a HP fan per se, but I quite like Snape as a character in both books and films. And, yes, I do happen to consider Alan Rickman a talented, handsome actor. However, the Snape worship I encountered when I only dipped so much as my toes into the depths of fandom, to opt for a really silly metaphor, was, um, mind-boggling.

No, he's not "EVIL BUT SEXAY YAY!11!!" Nor is he just a poor misunderstood woobie. And, no, he's not anyone's husband on an astral plane, either. It almost made me despise Snape for a while until I learnt to stay away from the online stuff.

Rinse and repeat about the same experience with Spike when I started watching "Buffy" on DVD last autumn. (Alan Rickman PWNS James Marsters, though.) Boy, I'm just glad that I didn't catch that show live. Its fandom might have scarred my enjoyment forever. Posthumous exposure to scary fangirls had already made me reach the stage when I began to twitch as soon as Spike was onscreen.

And, well, there's Rose, one of my favourite DW characters when I started out with that show, because of her role as stand-in for the audience as well as Billie Piper's enthusiastic performance. Shipping her with the Doctor (esp. Nine) was also of the good. Then came all the post-"Doomsday" fixits. Now the post-S3 kerfuffles after poor Martha's departure. You know the stuff.

I haven't even looked at time_and_chips's mainpage for at least half a year. I think I might have become physically uncapable to.

Perhaps I should decide on a general 'Net abstinence for another six months and forget all about batshit insane fen.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

You know the stuff.

Yeah, I do. Been times I thought about just buggering off from DW fandom, but... Eh well. I do love the show and the characters, but it's sometimes hard to keep in mind.

Sometimes a break is good, and perhaps things will calm down. One can only hope. Modding T&C has become a bit easier, though, which I'm glad for.

It's so much easier to laugh at the batshit when it's not involved with stuff you care about :(

[preachelectric]

I don't hate any pairing. The squick ones make me wince a little but, as you put it, "each their own". Even when the fans go on and on about their pairing I find that I don't care about the pairing, rather I tend to not like the fans for being absolutely mental about a pairing and not accepting of other ones. Fandom-idiots drive me up the wall which is probably one of the reasons I never get heavily involved in any fandom. Don't have to deal with them as much that way.

But, when Miss Enthusiastic is away on holidays, sometimes I'll even give the cat a pat on the head while walking my dog and then go on my way.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

You're probably wiser than me.

Then again, getting heavily involved in fandom has gotten me some great friends - to everything a plus and minus, really.

It is hard to resist a cat. *nods sagely*

[larakailyn.livejournal.com]

I think you might already know this, but unfortunately, the answer is yes for me. Fandom can and has made me hate a character I originally rather liked, and this is after I once said that I didn't understand how that could happen. I always used to think if you liked/disliked a character, you should be able to do it on the character's own merits than how other's view it. Plus, it should be to each her own on preferences.

Sadly, now though...not so true for me anymore. I can watch the character and still enjoy certain aspects and what not, but I resent the character for ever having been part of canon now, both because of fandom and because of the writing. The writing part actually happened secondary and probably would have stayed as a small annoyance without the fandom part.

It's probably stupid, but after everything that happened, it's the way I feel.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know. I did think about you a bit as I wrote it. And in your case, there was a catlady (fandom has many of them in varying versions, I think) that finally made you had enough and leave fandom alltogether, right?

I suppose all this tells us a bit about how powerful transference is. But in this case, it just makes me sad.

I mean, I understand why you wanted to leave T&C in the end, but I find the reason why quite sad and of course, I wasn't fond of that particulary catlady to begin with.

[aj.livejournal.com]

Ahahaha, yes. Most of my dislike for characters is derived from their fans. Not ALL of it though. I generally wasn't all that fond of Rodney McKay from Stargate: Atlantis to begin with, but the fans just turned that dislike up to 11.

I fully admit this.

[aj.livejournal.com]

Although, I will say that I am one of those batshit kids who will never let go of an OTP. If half of the OTP dies or goes away... I will still ship that OTP until I die. I know how insane that is and try and limit my output on this subject as much as possible. I won't read other pairings (at all), but again. To each their own.

I'm just really good at staying in my own wading pool and not reading stuff if I know I don't want to. It's a gift. ;)

[vandonovan.livejournal.com]

Some pairings, yes. I know I would hate the batshit 10/Rose fans a lot less if they weren't so . . . . well, batshit. They are not only "Lookit my great cat, my cat is so fantastic, cat cat cat" but they're ALSO like, "Dogs are smelly and dirty. Dogs really don't love you like a cat does. Dogs are stupid. Dogs suck, also dogs are gross." And then she doesn't understand why you hate her so much.

There are pairings I simply don't get or don't like or that "threaten" my ship that I just don't care about, or can co-exist with because they're not assholes about it. But what would otherwise be a normal ship for me, or one that I mildly don't care about, or may even LIKE becomes untolerable due to the over indulgence.

(I quite like Nine/Rose, for instance, and I was on board for Ten/Rose for a while, until the show and the fans got all crazy...)

Anyway. Yes.

[vandonovan.livejournal.com]

And, in addition . . . I don't read Nine/Rose fic anymore, even though I like the pairing and I like the fics I HAVE read. But I'm soured on ROSE. And I'm terrified that I'll read a Nine/Rose and it'll be be bad. And I've read Ten/Rose fics that I REALLY LIKED but I will skim right the fuck over any Ten/Rose fic, I don't care what, no matter, because I'm so jaded on Ten AND Rose at this point. Even from authors I trust and stuff, I just . . . ugh. I've utterly been burnt out on Ten. It's sad because Ten fic is like 100:1 to everything else, and I'm probably missing some great stories . . . but I just can't make myself do it.

Also, I had no idea fandom hated Riley so much. @_@;;;;; I thought he was aweosme. XD (But I wasn't ever into Buffy fandom. And I didn't like Tara because Oz/Willow was so OTP and what. Willow is not a lesbian she is bisexual shut up I refuse to listen. LALALALAA)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_tallian_/]

It almost seems like a problem fandom has with complex characters. If a character (such as Spike as noted several times above) can be both heartbreakingly good and evil, fans seem to zoom in on one side of his character and ignore the other. This makes for some significant ugliness.

And with CSI, I think it's another case of myopia: people zoom in on their own pairing, and focus so much of their energy into it that a threat to it (ie an alternate pairing) causes them to act as though someone is threatening to eat their babies.

And, of course, they've all lost sight of the fact that it's just a tv show

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Ah, but by then it's not about the tv-show. It's about being right - at least to some. In CSI fandom, I know several who felt that when a couple that was opposing to their ship became a reality on the show, it was as if CBS had personally trampled all over the time and dedication they had put into their ship.

Some CSI shippers really did treat it as a Canon contest, and when Canon thus happened to one particulary ship, things got insanely wanky.

[longtimegone]

Oh hell yes. :)) It's sad and pathetic, but I've absolutely been influenced in shipping by the attitudes of the associated fans.

Now, that being said? It doesn't mean I dislike the ships when well done. But I generally never get to find out what is well done, because I just end up avoiding it like the plague.

I've always been irritated with anyone on any ship who feels they have some special entitlement to Being Right. And all ships are guilty of this. Like you win anything. Like that makes your enjoyment valid in a way that mine is not. WHATEVER. *headdesk*

[malaleen.livejournal.com]

I've always been irritated with anyone on any ship who feels they have some special entitlement to Being Right. And all ships are guilty of this. Like you win anything. Like that makes your enjoyment valid in a way that mine is not. WHATEVER. *headdesk*

OMG! YES! Don't you think that's what's fueling a good portion of the HP fandom right now? Because it's not liking how the ship turned out, it's about being proven right or wrong after years of arguing.

[cincoflex.livejournal.com]

I loved your analogy and while I can be a dog or cat person, I'm always leery of cat lovers who have to justify every single reason why the CAT is the way to go and endlessly put down dogs, Guinea Pigs, Ferrets or Goldfish in an attempt to keep CAT up in front.

My personal cross to bear is the House thread on YTDAW, where Cat = House/Cameron and any other ship clearly needs to be packed off to the Pound to be gassed. And the funny thing is that I've written House/Cameron; I can dabble in the ship, but the strident atittude of the fans in that thread--even those I like and admire--make me grit my teeth and long to kick kitty across the friggin' room.

[falena]

Totally with you on the YTDAW House board thing. I can't stand the place anymore and I'm sad, because it was the only place where I got to interact (or actually lurk, since I never posted anyway) with other House fans.

[crusherbevdr.livejournal.com]

Yes, I believe the actions of some fans cause the dislike of characters and pairings.

I don't actively dislike any person on CSI. I don't care for the GSR pairing, but my motto is whatever floats your boat. However, I do dislike the actions of some of the people who ship this ship. Which in turn makes me a bit biased towards the characters.

[ericasj.livejournal.com]

Hate is such a strong word and I don't think I've ever really hated a pairing, but yes, a very big part of the reason why I might dislike a pairing is usually some of its fans. In fact, I usually dislike these fans more than I dislike the ship. LOL. Take CSI as an example, you know I'm not into Grissom/Sara, but I don't hate this pairing, either. However, there are at least two fans of this ship that I really can't stand and I never bother hiding it. Same thing happened when I was into Ally McBeal, ER, and a few other shows.

[spotts1701.livejournal.com]

I don't really get involved in shipping wars - to me it feels a lot like other circumstances where people will be selective about their "facts" to make it fit their chosen OTP.

Not to mention I get told enough times in other parts of my life that my way of thinking is "wrong". I don't need it in my fandoms, thank you very much.

[malaleen.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean when it comes to disliking characters/ships because of the reactions of fandom. Right now I'm boggling over the HP fandom because more people are upset and care about the outcome of shipping then the main plot of how Voldemort is defeated.

As for DW, I am so burned out on Rose that any mention of her is like an automatic negative conditioned response from me. Which does sadden me, because I liked reading and writing her character, both with various Doctors and other people.

I'm starting to really hate shipping, and what makes that statement ironic is the fact that in all fandoms I've joined in the past, ships were what kept me going in them.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

Rose is weird because fandom seems to have the character so bound up in her relationship with Ten (not just the Doctor, specifically Ten): I keep having to remind myself that not shipping Ten/Rose in canon doesn't mean I dislike either character. I don't have the same kind of cognitive dissonance with any of the other companions - I mean, I don't ship Three or Four with Sarah, I do ship Three/Jo and Four/Romana, yet this doesn't prevent Sarah from being a contender for my Favourite Companion Ever.

[canadian-kazz.livejournal.com]

As for my 10 cents...

Sometimes, I hate the shippers because they push the point too much into other people's faces. Even if I like that particular ship, I keep in mind other people's feelings. Or I try to, anyway.

Sometimes, I hate the ship simply because I don't think those characters work well together or I have a particular fondness for one character, but I dislike the other character for reasons to do with cannon. (Like if they offend or otherwise hurt a fave. character of mine.)

Then I dislike the shippers of a ship I don't like if they push it in my face.

And so on and so fourth.

[lotus79.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Musn't forget the alternate scenario, too. The one where Miss Enthusiastic notices you giving her cat dirty looks (or maybe you even just hinted to her that you are sick of all the cat talk and could she perhaps talk about something else for a change? Thus mortally offending her.) and comes to the concluion (correctly or incorrectly) that you hate all cats and want them to die. She loves cats, and thus in her eye you are now the root of all evil.

And that's the definition of frustration.

The question is, should Miss Enthuiastic damp down her love of cats so that you are less uncomfortable in her presence, or should you be forced to just "put up with" her annoying cat talk for the sake of being polite.

Actually, the real question is: what the hell is option 3 where everyone is made happy?

[genarti]

I think it's pretty much common courtesy to know your audience before you assume they like what you like, whether it's cats or characters. You can make your love of whatever it is known as part of conversation and see how they react to it, without gushing and squeeing and assuming everyone is delighted to discuss the merits of X at great and joyful length.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I really don't think my likes or disliked are affected by other fans at all. It's always good to find fans who share my tastes for a fandom, a character, or a pairing, but otherwise? Not really.

What other fans shape is my reaction to fandom. I loved DW series 1 and 2 and I loved the Doctor/Rose relationship, but after reading way too many Dcotor/Rose fanfics and seeing too much fantalk about it I started giving the fannish aspect of that ship a wide berth. It was overkill.

Like many Clex fans in Smallville, I dislike Lana Lang. But that's not because of the other fans, it's just a similar reaction for similar reasons.

On the other hand, in Torchwood fandom, the more I hear about fans who hate Gwen Cooper, the more I love Gwen, the more I become an apologist for her, the more I rationalize and forgive her flaws. I guess that is being affected by the other fans' reactions, but I can't help thinking that it's happening in a good way, driving me to further appreciation of a major character and therefore of the show.

I also tend to gravitate towards fans who share not just my views by my style of fannish interaction - that makes a difference too. I tend to avoid fanwank and battles, and if someone hates a character I like, or likes a character I hate, I just shrug mentally and think, "to each her own". (Or maybe, "Eu, how could she like him?" But I wouldn't say that aloud.)

There are a lot of very, very popular shows and characters in fandom that I just don't like at all. So I ignore them.

Re your cat analogy: I am badly allergic to cats and consequently not much of a cat fan, since I associate them, however cute, with pain and an inability to breathe for days. Many of my friends adore cats and talk about them at length. I don't mind. I don't change how I feel, but I enjoy their enthusiasm.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, in Torchwood fandom, the more I hear about fans who hate Gwen Cooper, the more I love Gwen, the more I become an apologist for her, the more I rationalize and forgive her flaws.

You too, huh? :) I have a feeling that by the time S2 ends, I'll be naming my cat Gwen, and wearing a Gwen t-shirt! Well, maybe not really, but you get the idea.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

It depends, for me. I've noticed that I start disliking characters or ships when discussion of them takes over every other debate in fandom, as it was noted by other commentators above. Something similar goes for characters that are heavily disliked - I usually find myself defending them, even when I myself am neutral on them, or even dislike them myself.

In most cases, however, I simply get fed up with the more rabid fans, pack my things and leave the respective fandom...

[teh-nos.livejournal.com]

There was a time when I quite liked fandom!Rose. At the start, when people wrote her without the bits that annoyed me (and in my head there was none of the performance bits that annoyed me, because text is good like that). Then it got like said about, very "fuck your opinion." I should, in theory, as a multishipper be cool and supporting of Ten/Rose. I mean, Three/Jo squicks me out, I can't stand Eight/Charley, Seven/Ace is Clearly Wrong. But fine, y'know, I don't have to read it. But Ten/Rose got so... fundamentalist. Stuff like how having non-Rose icons on T&C made you a hater made it feel like you had to be 100% supportive or die. The mere fact that was in T&C was cos it was fine at one point. There was fic, it was good, stuff hadn't been done to death yet and people were cool about other ships.

But then there was a lack of understanding about what caused fights. Being deliberately incendiary is one thing, but when fic passive-aggressively slags off some other pairing that isn't even a "threat" it's a bit much. That and "Rose was so much better than anyone ever" carries a bit of "everything you like is shit and you're wrong on every level" so when that's not even remotely needed it's just annoying. OTP hardcore shipping, basically. I've got my ships, I'm happy to be chill with other people's as long as they don't demand exclusivity that seems only there to belittle mine.

And then when I finally got a cat of my own, the catlady kept on about her cat until my cat left me because it was too emo about it all. Which did not help my love for the original cat.

[cryptoxin.livejournal.com]

I confused myself with your metaphor and thought you were calling the Doctor a catlady. Which one or two of them probably were.