WTFery about brainwashing kids w/stuff

[misscam]

Hmpf. Why am I awake? Oh, right. Work. Work which today is basically watching the phone while everyone is away and zilch else to do. (Seriously, I even asked for stuff to do, but no.) Time to stalk my flist?

(And I know I am late with fic - sorry! Got distracted by helping someone move, work, WoW (yay netherdrake) and autumn. Oh yeah. It's autumn in Norway and I am getting rained on. Brrr. I shall try to refocus.)

So during the weekend I watched a program about 'Kids on Fire' Bible camps in the US and got scared out of my brains. Kids being indoctrined, fundamentalism-is-the-only-way, thinking prayer solves everything, the hostility to science and firm conviction evolution is a fraud, the pushing of children into advocating anti-abortion, the firm belief in Satan - this world boggles me.

Okay, being an atheist I suppose I am not in the best position to understand it in the first place, but there was a time I really, really wanted to be religious. There is a comfort in it. I did seek it once - I just found that belief in a God was not something I had. It doesn't bother me that friends are religious - only if they attempt to push it on me. (Similarly, I don't try to 'save' them into atheism. You have to make your own mind up about these things.)

But the world the program was showing was something far away from the religion I am used to. It was that children were being not taught about the faith, but indoctrined, using methods that usually decribe sects. (Mass meetings, brainwashing techniques, no contact outside your own movement.) When one mother were homeschooling a seven-year-old boy and saying "You see now why evolution is wrong?" I think my brain kinda fell out. I know it did when the same woman openly admitted she was incotrinating the kids and claiming this was good. Then they showed scenes from a camp.

...

What the fucity fuck with a side of mcfuck? Seriously, the stuff they showed was scary. And eerily reminicent of some things.

Hitlerjugden, thought I. Not because I compare Christianity and Nazism, but because I compare the methods. As the woman running it herself admitted, what you learn at seven stay with you for life. And these kids were sent out to preach and convert and were encouraged.

They even referred to it themselves as an army. Kids. An army of God, yeah, but you know what? Proclaiming to do something in the name of God has never been a guarantee it is a good deed. The Al Qaeda did their shit in the name of Allah, but just as many would use Allah's name to condem them. (I'll use basical moral indignation - get stuffed,, you revolting men using religion to excuse your dickheadness.) God is not your get-out-of-jail-free card.

I get worried when people think they can do no wrong because they represent their God. It worries me a great deal when they start teaching kids the same. It scares my poor widdle brain a great deal when independence of thought is seen as an enemy.

Why are you doing this to kids?! I mean, there's a huge difference between teaching and indoctrinating. You're not giving them faith. You're giving their brain a straightjacket and everything outside it is Satan.

Surely someone choosing to believe of their own free mind would please a deity more than someone only believing because he's been brainwashed? I really, really don't get it.

Am I just better off not understanding this?

Other stuff:

- Albin the albino moose is spared again. Awww. Also aww is Future Queen Ingrid Alexandra. She's really starting to grow :)

- Rosenborg managed a draw with Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, to much amusement for many Norwegians and non-CHelsea fans. Also beacuse apparently Swedish expert commentator Glenn Hysén promised to crawl 120 kilometres if Rosenborg were to get points from the match. Glenn? Start crawling. 8He's apparently agreed to keep his promise if the distance is reduced. Heh.) Day after teh match, Chelsea coach buggers off. I guess he wasn't good enough at turning the omelette. Ah, football. I wub thee.

- Heh, yet another comm has 'borrowed' Page-A-Mod. Suppose I should be flattered so many like my idea - even a community owner I know loathes my gutts has snagged - though renamed it, of course.

- People of Supernatural fandom, is the chick of this wank as fandom batshit as she seems? Because wow.

- I read on the train to and fro work and since I read fast, I go through a lot of books. I quite often buy cheap books at a place in Oslo central station and the guy working mornings there now recognises me and makes comments about my book buying. I find this bemusing.

- I loves NRK for sending The Daily Show five times a week now. Give me a hug, you big state-owned channel. YOU BRING ME THE AWESOME.

- Robert Jordan died??? Wow. I started reading Wheel of Time when I was a lot younger and though I did lose interest in it, I do have fond teenage memories of it - and it was the series of books that got my brother reading, for which my mother is enternally grateful. (Now he reads a lot.) :(

- "I steal your fics because I'm whacky like that!" Bitch, please.

I need lunch now.

Comments

[tearcreek.livejournal.com]

Cam? Your HTML broke... :S

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Already fixed it.

This is what happens when I post on four hours of sleep. Ow.

[belegcuthalion.livejournal.com]

Am I just better off not understanding this?

Definitely yes.. Even I don't, and I mostly understand how those folks think. I firmly believe in the existence of Satan, too, btw., but accepting the fact that there's an eternal evil is no excuse to switch off your brain. But of course things get increasingly easy once you have neatly divided the world in two parts of white and black.

I feel sorry for the kids.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Satan as a sort of metaphor for evil in the world or an actual fallen angel actively inspiring people to do evil?

Black and white does not fit the human world. Just doesn't work for me. I mean, even if I were to believe there was a fully good God and a fully evil Satan, it seems to me that most humans wander somewhere in between. I mean, plenty of 'righteous' Christian fundamentalists do bad shit, but the moment Someone Not of Us do something not great it's because they're the spawn of Satan?

Humans are bloody walking shades of grey - but of course, those shades vary immensely from person to person.

[miss-andromache.livejournal.com]

As someone recently escaped from the cultishness of fundamentalism, I totally agree with the scariness. Along the same vein as the people teaching 7 year olds things to "equip them" to go out and preach and convert and so forth, the book that I recently read about Hillsong, one of the big fundamentalist AGO churches in Sydney says that Hillsong started an orphanage somewhere in Africa under the guise of looking after children when it was really done in the hopes that they could raise up a pentecostal leadership base in Africa as the kids grow up. I feel sorry for them.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Oi. See, that's a problem I have with some (note some, there are plenty of charities based on Christian values that do very admirable work) Christian chairities sometimes - when the chairty is just a mean to convert and not something good in itself.

Makes the charity seem less like charity and more like preying on the world's misery for your religious aims.

[kibebe.livejournal.com]

The 'Kids on Fire' stuff is scary, especially because they are based in my home state.(Although, I'm not totally surprised by that.) When I see kids, or anybody, blindingly following something, it just seems unnatural to me. I really hope the kids don't become too messed-up from all of that.

"People of Supernatural Fandom ..."

Yes. Have you seen her other appearance? She definitely has a few screws lose.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

It's always extra scary when it's next door. But brr, kids. Those don't even have a way of getting out of it when it's the parents dragging them in.

I've gone back and read a few now and... Ye, that's... Yeah.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

They even referred to it themselves as an army. Kids.

'I will never march in the infantry
Ride with the cavalry
Shoot with the artillery
I will never zoom o'er the enemy
For I'm in the Lord's army (yes, sir!)'

I used to have to sing that with the Girls' Brigade (the Girls/Boys Brigade are like a Presbyterian version of the Scouts here. Only not fun.) As a kid I assumed it meant that Christians should be conscientious objectors in wartime, but given that I was a bit confused as to why all of our meetings and displays started with military drill practice...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Duh.

Lots of stuff goes over kids' head, really. I mean, I missed the fact that in Narnia, Aslan=Jesus. He even turns into a sheep and I missed it. Kids, not so much with getting the contect sometimes...

(Also, that song is vaguely scary.)

[sliven.livejournal.com]

Ouch. They showed exactly that same program over here a few months ago.
It gave me nightmares, more or less. *shudders*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

YES.

I think it's even more incomhrensible to Scandinavian general thinking these days - just as the 'Kids on Fire' movement would probably have troubles with the concept of 'personal' faith.

[fantasyprone.livejournal.com]

*insert total agreement over brainwashing stuff*

- Robert Jordan died??? Wow. I started reading Wheel of Time when I was a lot younger and though I did lose interest in it, I do have fond teenage memories of it - and it was the series of books that got my brother reading, for which my mother is enternally grateful. (Now he reads a lot.) :(

That happened to me too - I started reading Wheel of Time in year 7 (six or so years ago now) and though it's kind of a guilty pleasure (I think it's not great fantasy, and I do object to the sexism in it) it was kind of a significant point in my life. Now I've found out he's dead and I don't quite know what to think.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know. I was rather young when I read him and even if I moved on, I still feel rather nostalgic about it. It's just weird.

Also, I'll always remmeber him as what finally got my brother reading (my mum is a librarian and had near given up in despair), so for that alone he deserves kudos.

[falena]

That 'Kids on fire' thing is definitely scary, oh yes. Even from my religious POV. Btw, one of the things that I liked the most about Dawkins's book is that it made me think about the question of children indoctrination. The line between teaching faith and drilling it into someone's brain can be very fine.
Sometimes I think I am religious just because I was born and raised into it and it is part of life as I know it. Of course, at least I've always had (and always will have) the possibility of giving it all up, if I wanted. Some of my relatives are even atheists, so iI guess I wouldn't be disowned. :P

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Hmm. What we are taught as kids does have a profound effect on our lives, I think. And we are very trusting as children - I mean, when I was 9, I was told our cat went to 'the old cats' home'. Fine, thought I. Then when I was over 20, I happened to mention it to my mother and she told me the cat had really been put down. I was all "...". Of course I should have realised that earlier - old cats' home, sheesh! But i just had never thought to question what my mother had told it. My mind had just accepted it as truth.

I think that little example is kinda illustrative. On the other hand, we can question things when we get older - we just have to know they are there. And question is not the same as deny. If religion makes you happy, and you don't use it to make others unhappy, then I don't necessarily think it's a harmful thing.

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

They do it because they think that any deviation from that particular path will lead to damnation. So they fix that paradigm in their kids early, and hope they stay that way, so their eternal souls receive salvation.

The majority of them don't do the bad shit they do out of sadism, I think, they do it cos they think it'll save them. Not that this exonerates them, but it can be hard to break indoctrination.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I guess. It's just from an outsider's POV, you see the cracks and the illogic of some of it so much more clearly. I mean, some of the beliefs they hold even clash and don't really reconcile.

[chicklet73.livejournal.com]

Am I just better off not understanding this?

I think so. Because if you did, we'd have to wonder about your sanity.

What's going on in that camp is some scary shit. At least, it scares me. An army? *shiver*

I get worried when people think they can do no wrong because they represent their God.

I'm with you...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I thought it was established I'm mindly out of my mind but at least aware of it?

Yeah, the army concept worries me a great deal. It's too much like kid soldiers - they might say it's not an armed struggle, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time arms have been brought into a religious argument and if you're already using the language of war - bringing in the mean of war becomes all the more easy, doesn't it?

[immoralilly.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's like that Jesuit saying - give me the child before he is seven and I will give you the man. Something like that anyway. I really object to forcing anything on a child that strongly - they're just not old enough to get what's happening, and so what you tell them is going to be accepted for the rest of their lives.

Also, yes, ckll really is that nuttily insane. Moreso, behind locked posts, I think. She's our Very Special Wanker.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Well, sometimes people do break out of it when they grow up - it's just that it takes tremendous effort and even then, you have to live with guilt over it. I really think some things you should trust your children to make their own mind up about.

Moreso?! Can she even get 'moreso'? Eeek, hold me.

[lyricalviolet.livejournal.com]

Hey, when I borrowed Page-A-Mod, I totally gave ya'll credit :)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Heh, yeah. A lot do or even ask, which is nice of them :)

[mademoisellenon.livejournal.com]

I've heard about that documentary but still haven't gotten around to watching it unfortunately. Perhaps this is motivation enough.

Living here I've seen plenty of people (by that I mean tourists) shocked when they arrive to NYC and see Buddhist monks praying on one end of Times Square, women in hijabs rushing to and fro, others claiming to be JC reborn... You get the idea. So I am not surprised so much by kids being trained to be an "army of God", though it goes without saying that 99.99% of all wars generally start in His name. What sickens me are the tactics and that children are forced to go in one way and one direction only, not realizing that there are plenty of options out there.

That's a nightmare to me, this inability to make your own choice. It's uglier than anything this people could do.

Bon appetit, Camié!

[misscam.livejournal.com]

It is quite an interesting watch. I'm glad I did, even if it did boggle my mind.

Norway does have variety in beliefs, particulary in Oslo, but what I am unused to is the... Public pushing, I suppose. In Norway, faith is like sex. It's generally assumed you might have it in some way or another, but you don't go around asking details unless it's someone you know.

[--kali--.livejournal.com]

That, that . . . I just don't have words. (the top bit of your post) o.0

[siraj.livejournal.com]

*clutches his ankh and Anubis pendants, looking a little pale*

By the Gods... I think I'm going to be ill... I knew that they were bad... but I didn't think they were THAT bad...

Those poor kids...

[ashiya.livejournal.com]

Err. That 'Kids on Fire' thing... all I can say to that is those kids are gonna be in for a shock when they grow up. o_O

I pity those kids.

[karma-kalisutah.livejournal.com]

No one's ever better off not understanding.

The thing is that these people think that anyone who does not follow their doctrine will face eternal torture after death. In the face of that, "you do your thing and I'll do mine" isn't really the most empathetic mindset imaginable. Frankly, I'd say that anyone who truly, honestly believes that and doesn't do everything in their power to convert as many people as possible is morally deficient.

Of course, that doesn't mean that they aren't dead wrong. But you have to look at it the way they do to realize just how dangerous their worldview is, and maybe muster some pity for them and the way they've been poisoned.

The Albin story isn't very "aw" to me. I don't like it when humans condescend to certain "special" animals. It makes me think of that line from "Boom Town." "That's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions. Because once in a while, on a whim, if the wind's in the right direction, you happen to be kind."

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Got issues with our moose hunt, then?

I can vaguely see that point, but on the other hand they undermind that by 1) engaging in 'bad' behaviour themselves and someone how that is suddenly less bad 2) obvious logical inconsistancies in their mindset and 3) the outright glee some have in condeming others.

I imagine it is very hard to break out of something pushed so hard on you, but it is still just... So very alien to my mind. And very far from the sort of religion I've had around me - and my soceity seem to manager to propser well enough.

[aka-paloma.livejournal.com]

Am I just better off not understanding this?

Yes. Yes, you are. If you did understand any of it, that would mean you actually thought like them. And that is bad since they are completely batshit crazy people.

[maureenlycaon.livejournal.com]

You may well be better off not understanding it.

I have my own whole complex "theory" (not to be confused with a scientific theory) about what is going on here, and it has to do with demographic anxiety, future shock, mass insanity, etc. Short version: you're seeing a large segment of the American population turning away from the future and going stark fucking bonkers. And the mentality really IS just like that of a cult.

Homo sapiens sapiens doesn't handle being sentient all that well, it seems. *sigh*

Anyway, got you a little early gift. :-)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time people have gone stark raving mad. Hello, Europe after WWI. Society really can collectively delude itself. It's scary as shit - but you can also wake up, even if the alarm bell can be nasty.

Gift? Now I'm intrigued.

Been there, still a Christian, still fighting the urge to judge

[seizard.livejournal.com]

Until I was about 11, I was raised in a very narrow-minded, ultra-conservative church. I was 10 years old before I knew there were people who DIDN'T go to church. I thought if you drank alcohol, you were going to hell, and if you danced with a boy, you'd get pregnant.

It wasn't scary, it was normal to me. The people teaching me were just like everyone else during the week and pious, pompous egomaniacs on Sundays.

Which is why my family left. Dad couldn't stand the hypocricy.

The very next church we joined I was taught to question everything. Our pastor said, "Don't take my word for it! Look it up for yourself. Find the answers!" The Bible itself says not to believe what people tell you, but to test them, test yourself, even to test God and the Bible! So I did. Still do.

I do believe in the Bible, I do believe Satan is real, and there is tons of archaeological, historical, and scientific evidence to support my faith. If anyone's interested, I can point you to where I went looking. But we (meaning my church) teach our kids to question, to wonder, to think for themselves. We tell them what we believe, why we believe it, and ask them what they think.

I do know a lot of fundamentalist so-called Christians, who try to force their views on others. I don't consider them Christians at all. Here's why:

Christian means "Christ-like" and, when asked, Jesus Christ gave His followers 2 rules ABOVE ALL OTHERS: "Love God and love others." (Matthew 22: 37 & Mark 12:28-34, among other places)

And the Bible's definition of "religion" by the way...?
"Take care of the widows and orphans".

Re: Been there, still a Christian, still fighting the urge to judge

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I do believe Satan is real, and there is tons of archaeological, historical, and scientific evidence to support my faith. If anyone's interested, I can point you to where I went looking.

Er, I'd have to see that. And will probably not find it a least bit convincing, I have to warn you. I know there are groups out there looking for evidence of the Bible - and I also know these groups often have a strong bias and see what they want to see. The historical evidence I know of does contradict some things of the Bible and confirms some others. (It is quite certain Jesus did live, for instance, whether or not one believe he was the son of God But the Earth is NOT 6000 years old only.) Given that the Bible was written by humans - humans driven by inspiration of God if you believe so, but humans - it's not that surprising some facts could've gotten confused. (They've done observations on how humans retell stories and that does show stories change with each person telling it in some way or another. That's just our brain at work.)

But the rule ain't that bad. I don't believe in God, but I'll happily sign my name to the last part. I have many friends who believe in one deity or another and if that at the core of their values, then we get along just fine.

[kittycatness.livejournal.com]

That sucks that he died.
I would have liked to meet him.

Princess Ingrid looks quite a bit like my grandmum (on my mum's side) before she passed away. (When she was younger, that is.)
My sister agreed.

Religious education should be educational.
I teach on Sundays and I encourage my kids to ask questions about the faith. I want them to think.
"Think!!!!!" is one of the classroom rules. I explained it to them (they're in seventh grade, but some of them didn't understand that, yeah, we have brains that we can use and do stuff with) and they kind of looked at me, smiled, and got it.

The really big militant religious groups scare the shit out of me. Especially the crazy Fundamentalist ones who refuse to believe that the bible isn't really telling you to cut off your foot if it causes you to sin.
There are too many people I've come across already in my short life who have looked down on those who are different, who refuse to take other people's feelings into consideration, who think that I and those who believe as I do are the spawn of Satan and going to hell, who look down on pregnant women without husbands, who think that it's wrong to "abandon" men if they beat you because you happen to be married to them, and/or think that disagreeing with something the bible says in passing means that you're going to hell. (That was a run-on, but I don't particularly care.)
THOSE people scare me.



♥

Angry Ignorance is Always Scary.

[seizard.livejournal.com]

"...who look down on pregnant women without husbands, who think that it's wrong to "abandon" men if they beat you because you happen to be married to them, and/or think that disagreeing with something the bible says in passing means that you're going to hell."

Yeah. Those people haven't read the Bible apparently. Nothing makes me angrier than an uninformed "Christian" spouting off about what God thinks of others.

If you believe in the Bible, you believe in ALL of it, but that means you should READ it before you open your mouth. Anyone who did any sort of research would know that the Old Testament way of doing things is over. It says so in the NEW Testament.

It also says WHY they did things the OT way. (It's AMAZING stuff. Just ask, I'll explain if you're interested. It's not for the reasons most people think, it's about agriculture, health and science.)

Cam: Addenda

[siraj.livejournal.com]

re: Kids On Fire, I spotted an LJ icon in the Bad_Service comm

"Guilt, Fear & Mass Insanity, 3 cheers for Christianity"


... kinda fits these wankers, doesn't it?

[stickmarionette.livejournal.com]

I guess he wasn't good enough at turning the omelette.
Oh, I <3 Rosenborg for their role in Mourinho's downfall.

[jvgymnast.livejournal.com]

Those sorts of indoctrination techniques are scary.
In general it really, really bothers me when someone tries to "save" me or tells me I'm going to hell because of what I believe. It happened quite a few times when I was in school. For one thing, I don't go around pushing my beliefs on anyone else, so why can't they leave me (and others) alone? I don't understand why part of someone's faith has to be harassing other people to join that faith.

Also, question-- you're getting the Daily Show 5 times a week? Is one a rerun, because they only make 4 each week...