Fanfic writer leaves; readers react; Cam ponders

[misscam]

Fairly popular fanfic writer leaves CSI fandom...

... and not everyone takes that too well...

... which of course the author reacts to.

I do know the author in question somewhat and I'm feeling a bit torn. On one hand, fandom is a community of sorts and vanishing without trace will leave people understandably worried. (But I can see the point about making Grand Announcements on leaving - that can come across all the wrong ways.) On the other hand, fanfic authors are in fact not under obligation to do anything. Fandom works on a volunteery basis. I certainly won't blame anyone for putting real life first - make it an excellent one, I say.

Course, once you have shared your writing in public domain, it isn't as if you can recall that invitation. People are already in your house. You can toss them out and set up some fences, but can't change that they've already been there. (As lotus79 puts it: ¨"compare it to "real" publishing; you own the rights and can decide not to allow reprints, but copies that are already printed are no longer yours--you can't order them all hunted down and destroyed.")

I must admit I have been tempted at times to delete past fanfic, mostly because it's fandoms I've moved on from and fics I find rather crap. But I never quite have - and sometimes I still get reviews from people who seemed to enjoy it. I might not have any obligation to keep the fics up - but do I feel one still, I wonder? (I know I certainly feel one to write sometimes. Like now. Oops, need to finish three fics and start two more.)

Opinions, O Flist?

Comments

[longtimegone]

Hmmm, I don't write, but my perspective on this is not much different than yours. I understand why, at some point, someone would want to leave fandom and remove their writings. I also understand why the author wants control over the distribution of their work. At the same time, being a solelyfandom leech reader myself, I feel for the teeming masses who've enjoyed a work, and then have it taken down/away.

It's a tricky thing, and being that I cringe like mad when I read my old LJ posts, I can only imagine how writers feel about old fic. :)) I'd probably delete everything.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah - I mean, I write myself, so I do see the writer's POV, but I do read too and if suddenly something I liked reading and rereading was removed - say, someone stole my Terry Pratchett books - I would probably whine about it.

Old fic can at least remind you that you've improved some. But yeah, some of mine make me cringe and want to smack younger self. Ugh.

[chicklet73.livejournal.com]

As a writer (un-prolific though I may be), I probably wouldn't delete my oldfic, only because I figure - what's the point? It's already out there.

As a reader, I would be sorely disappointed if a fic (or fics) I loved suddenly disappeared. Which is why I have been known to print certain fics or copy/paste the text into a Word document to live safely on my own hard drive for all eternity.

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

You get to do what you want. I think it's silly to go around withdrawing stories from the internet but sometimes people have their reasons.

Whenever I get a 'please delete' notice or 'please remove my stories from your archive' I comply.

*shrugs*

I think it takes fortitude to leave crap fiction, or fiction that no longer speaks to or for you/your ideas on the internet.

[mistress-mab.livejournal.com]

Brain twins ftw!

[ashestothestars.livejournal.com]

I know that I happened upon an old notebook of random things related to the novel that I've been working on that I'd initially written over 10 years ago (at that point). I wanted to burn that thing (BURN IT, SEND IT TO HELL!). My earlier fic I don't mind half as much but I know the burning urge to get rid of it. I'll probably end up going back and re-writing a bit of it to make it what I'd like to see now.

[starletfallen.livejournal.com]

Hm...

I think, in normal situations when you've just moved on or don't like the fic anymore, it's not the best idea to delete fics, 'cause people might like them. Case in point - one of my favorite stories by a certain RENT fanfic author who I know well (*prods said author, because she needs to wake up and is cutting of the circulation to my leg*) is also a favorite of many of the people who read her work, but she despises it.

However, having read CSINut's explanation... I think she was perfectly justified in taking her stuff down, probably smart. If her Real Life identity is connected to her fandom identity through things like facebook, and if the wrong someone making the connection would put her job in jeopardy, I think she should take it down. Now, those wrong someone's aren't going to go combing fandom for any reference to her and those stories, so if she puts them up on a site without links to her...

Now, granted, she may be being a bit paranoid, but I can't hold it against her. I think what might be a good idea at this point, for people who still want to read or re-read her stories, would be for her to make a zip file or two, and upload them, and just get them distributed into the fandom. Email the link to a couple of people she knows, and they can post the links all over.

...But that's just an idea.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think deleting because you're afraid your employer will find out is completely justified. I've had friends do it before, and I hate losing the fic, but I think it's justified. It's not "I'M TAKING MY TOYS AND GOING", it's "Jeez, my real-world life conflicts."

Many of said friends eventually repost under a new name that can't be traced to them, but I completely see where they're coming from. There are similar issues with stalkers and family.

[gentle-blessing.livejournal.com]

I think she was perfectly justified in taking down her work. Real life can suck really hard and sometimes you just can't have that little bit of doubt when it comes to someone at work or in Real Life finding out that your passtime is writing about hot sex between two tv/movie/book characters. I just think some people have issues separating fandom from real life at times..and that's when you get discussions like that about it not being fair to the readers.

I still get people IMing me and emails from the Dead Like Me fandom to finish a fic I've just not had the time/inspiration to do almost a year now. I just think people don't understand that Real Life gets in the way. it happens.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Opinions, O Flist?

That this is a thorny no-win situation, really. Or the only way to win is to use a pseud. for your writing identity and hope that nobody crosses over to your real one, but even that's a frail reed.

The author is worried about her job, which is her highest priority. That the fans are sorry her stories are gone I can sympathize with, but that's what "cut and paste" are for, people.

No, on second thought, I don't sympathize with the fans who are sorry her stories are gone. I'm getting rather angry, in part because it seemed perfectly right and proper for one or two entitlement babies to lash out viciously because someone stole their rattle, and nevermind WHY. Roll your eyes and make some popcorn, I'm about to tell another Beauty and the Beast war story.

I was a fanfic author back before the internet. (I believe you were too?) When there were only 20 to 50 copies of your story kicking around, we hardly had to worry about fandom coming back to bite us in the ass, and because we were young and giddy, we did things like use our real names.

Fast-forward 20 years. Fandom has now moved primarily online; I return to BatB fandom. I discover that there is an online archive that is trying to put up all the old fic, and quite right too. I put up much of mine, only this time under a pseud.

But every now and then, some chippy would get the bright idea of putting up all the old fic just as it was, regardless, "and if anyone doesn't like it, they can ask to take it down." This was inevitably met with a wave of fury from the old timers and eventually shouted down (unlike something that happened in Star Wars fandom, where someone is posting old zines and telling the old authors to bite her; they're her zines and she'll do what she wants with 'em.)

It was amazing the way people tried to browbeat and insult us into giving them what they wanted. Weren't we proud to be fans? We shouldn't be ashamed!

It's 20 damn years later. The rules have changed significantly from when I banged out stories on a portable typewriter. I don't have shame, I have a career and a mortgage, and they damn well take priority over making sure that someone who approaches me that rudely gets whatever they want of mine when they want it and for free. We paid for those zines, and ebay's lousy with 'em.

So I see this situation as being a primarily online version of the same story. The author wrote what she wrote for love. Then real life took precedence and she sanely put a paycheck over her hobby and moved things away from where they could be used against her.

That people didn't archive the story from the moment they saw and loved it is their loss, and maybe if they asked the author or their friends *nicely* they could have a bootleg copy. But they've got no right to put their entertainment over her security.

[nadat.livejournal.com]

She has every right to delete it. She's the writer. However...

It's the circumstances that make her decision logical and understandable, rather than something that would rile up fans. Her job could be at risk by leaving the stories up; therefore it's logical to take them down.

My first fanfic is still online. It's awful. But it has fans who still reread it from time to time, so I've left it up.

I think that if there isn't a good reason to take something down, it should be left up. A writer can delete their stuff should they feel like it; it is indeed theirs. But they should consider that once they've posted it, there is a good chance someone else is involved in the story now, and need to consider their (the author's) motivation.

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

I do hate when a fic I love is taken down, although of course I understand that it's entirely the author's prerogative. If there's one thing I've learnt about fandom, though, is that writers come and go. Best not to get too attached, unless they become your personal friends. And this is why printing out fics is yay. \o/

[padawanpooh.livejournal.com]

I've been writing in one fandom or another since '95 and not always under a pseudonym so one day my old stuff *might* come back and bite me, but I doubt it. I don't think I'm *ashamed* of any of what I've written, and luckily I've never written anything pr0ny (love reading it but can't write it) which could compromise me professionally.

Once stuff is written it's out there as far as I'm concerned, and I've also wanted to go back and find ye ancient fanfics which have been sucked up in some great website purge and that is gutting. All fanfic is basically a copywrite violation anyway so why be precious about it? *shrugs*.

As for finishing stories - I think writers have obligations to readers not to leave them hanging with a real cliffhanger (I've done it just once but I was ashamed of it), and readers have an obligation not to repeatedly nag writers - we all have RL commitments of one kind or another. The whole system *should* operate on mutual respect.

That's my ha'penneth worth anyway.

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

In general I don't understand why someone who is just tired of fandom and moving on would feel the need to take all their toys with them. I tend to use memories or bookmarks to mark stories that I like to reread so when everything is taken down I'm left with nothing which is annoying. And honestly, even as a writer I don't get the urge to delete all previous work when one moves on.

That being said, this is a hobby, done in spare time for fun and I completely understand why someone in this type of situation (job vs hobby) would make this decision. And I would probably do something very similar.

[aj.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I'm firmly in the camp that gets royally annoyed when authors try to eliminate all traces of themselves. I understand wanting to take stuff down if you've published under your own name (I do!), but I also know that there are steps you can take to keep that work out there.

I don't know. I've just had several fandoms where REALLY GOOD authors suddenly decide to take their work down and it's SO frustrating because I know I've read it before and I WANT to read it again... but it's just not there. I always feel that if you're going to take your stuff down, give people a warning so that they can save a copy of the story for their own personal future use.

Meh. Damn, now I wanna read that ONE SINGLE decent Mac/Stella CSI:New York fic I read that was phenomenal but, oh, hey! Can't do that! The author TOOK IT DOWN. ARG.

*gets cranky*

[bibliotech.livejournal.com]

I can delete anything that's mine, because it's mine. I save the stories that I like to my hard drive because one day they might be gone, and if they're gone, I can't just demand they come back or say they have a right to be around or whatever, because they're not mine.

[highwindpav.livejournal.com]

In this specific author's situation, I think she was not only justified in removing her fic, but also doing the intelligent thing. I have heard of people losing their jobs over stuff like that.

As a general rule though, I can see it from both views. Generally, I think it's more honorable to leave the fics up if one leaves fandom. Even leave the fics up that make one cringe. It doesn't hurt anyone to do that. Though I think if someone wrote something and was hasty in posting it, there's nothing wrong with pulling it quickly. I guess I feel like there's a statute of limitations on it. If something's been up for a year and the only harm it's doing is making the author cringe a bit, leave it up...someone probably still would like to read it just like people like to see a favorite artist's earlier paintings. If something's been up for a week and the writer realizes that wow, that really wasn't fit to post, then taking it down before anyone got a chance to get attached doesn't do anyone any harm. I've done that...but then again, there's another fic I feel shifty about but I'd feel weird taking it down after this long. So I guess I do feel an obligation to leave fics up. I still get reviews from time to time on really old stuff, and maybe, who knows, it might rekindle a fire to write something more in that fandom.

From the other side, a writer has every right to pull their work from the 'Net. It's my work; if I decided to just pull up stakes and move, I'd have every right to do that. I can't control what someone else has already got in their hands, though I can nicely ask archivers to take stuff down and hope they do. There have been times when I wished to no longer be associated with a website that had rather suddenly offended my sensibilities and I requested works removed because of it, and thankfully the works were removed. I couldn't demand that they do, because the electrons are no longer in my hands...unless it was original work, then perhaps I could legally lean on their hosting. That would be a bit extreme though. I could still make the request though. Smart fans distraught about the sudden loss ought to go into their caches and see if they've still got a cached copy hiding on disk--I bet a bunch of them do and then they can save the copies for themselves. Still, I personally wouldn't, in a general sense, feel right doing something like that. It's already out there. Someone's going to care if it's gone. I do know someone who left fandom a long time ago and pulled her fics. She gets bothered years after the fact about a fic she never finished. She doesn't have the fic hosted anywhere that she has control over, though when I found out she was still getting harassed about it, I offered to remove it from my website. I never heard back, so I just moved it to the "Bone Yard" (where guaranteed dead fics go) and put a note up telling readers to stop bothering the author about it, she's said plainly she won't finish it and plainly that she hates being badgered about it, so don't hunt her down and ask her about it. I won't take it down unless she asks me to, and since I offered to take it down and she never returned my e-mail, I exercised what I felt was my right as an archiver--I had permission to post it originally, and the permission has not been revoked, so I leave it up. However, since I do have an archive, if some writer asked to be removed from it, I would comply. I'd still keep my copy local, though.

Those are just generals though. There are obviously mitigating circumstances in some cases, and in others...well, it does suck when an author I like pulls their stories, but they hardly owe it to me to leave them up, much less give me an explanation. If I didn't save a copy local, tough for me. I have asked nicely for 'bootlegs' from authors, and some have been kind enough to send me copies. Then there's people who protest an archive's policies. Hello FF.net! I've seen people pull everything off to protest their policies, but leave the fics up elsewhere where the policies aren't so nutty. I've pulled a couple stories from there over it, while I've seen others pull stories because they didn't feel they could operate under the completely insane rating system.

[butterfliedgsr.livejournal.com]

Although I have read the author's reasons for removing her fic I am still in two minds. Of course, her fics are hers to do with as she will, so if she wants to remove them then fair enough. However, the reasons for which she removed them make me mad at the people who might punish her for such a thing- she isn't doing anything illegal or anything that would in any way affect her employers. As a reader, I am also very unhappy because I loved her fics
:( However, ultimately, everyone does this for a reason and if she feels the need to leave, then good luck to her. RL is always more important than fanfic, sad as it is. I always hope that retiring authors leave their fanfic up, but in this case it was clearly unavoidable :(

[dreamingwriter.livejournal.com]

If posting fanfiction will somehow interfere with your personal life, and you need to delete it then okay. I can understand that and I can even understand if you just don't like something and delete it. It's a shame if you do though. I say leave it up for those who enjoy searching back to other stuff you may have written and like to see how much you have improved.

[siraj.livejournal.com]

I've deleted fic out of pure shame before... not often, but I have... I've got so many unfinished works on my computer it's insane.

[elvenpiratelady.livejournal.com]

I've been tempted to delete my old fics, but the Pit got rid of a few of them anyway, I got some nice reviews, and I like to keep them there to remind myself that everyone can improve. I have tried to bury them under a pile of better fics, though. :D

[b2wm.livejournal.com]

Word on that!

I don't delete any of mine, knowing how easily a hard-drive or three can be lost, but then, the old crack is available through LJ only and I rarely write PG-13, let alone R rated stuff. I can understand trying to separate RL from fic, but that is what pennames and flocking are for, people. And old fic is good for a laugh. Sometimes a cringing laugh, but a laugh nonetheless.

[falena]

I personally know the author either and understand their reasons perfectly.
Generally speaking from my reader's POV, I can relate to those who were bummed to find their favourite stories gone too.
That's why I try to save (and quite often print out too) the stories I love the most.

[jukebox-cadence.livejournal.com]

I guess it all depends on why the person took down their stories. As a reader, yeah I'd be a little upset if I went to read an old favorite for a pick-me-up and it wasn't there. But I'd get over it.

From a writer--attempted writer?--of fanfic, I can also see the appeal of taking down ones stories, but I don't think I'd ever be able to do it unless it was unfinished and never would be finished. That's just being a tease. But once it's out there, it's out there and you might as well leave well-enough alone. And really, you write under a penname so it's not exactly doing you any harm.

[little-baldwin.livejournal.com]

I'm torn about this. Very recently (a few days ago, actually) I was searching for a pretty old fic - three or four years old, maybe. It wasn't a work of perfection, you understand, but it was good, and funny, and created good tension. I liked it rather a lot. I couldn't remember what it was called, so I just started searching for what I remembered.

It took me about half an hour, but I finally found one mention of it on the entire internet, which gave me both the title and the author, as well as an inactive link. The author is gone, wiped from all traces, as well as the story. The author left nothing behind, no explanation, not even an empty bio page.

And I'm torn. Because there are very good, legitimate reasons for leaving fandom, and in fact from pulling your stories altogether. Hell, I pulled all of my old stories, save my PPC fic, ages ago. But I also feel like tehre's an...I dunno, obligation, as an author, to at least leave something behind. Some trace of you, even. Just a note, saying, "I left fandom for good! Have a nice life!" I feel, as an author, that there's some sort of duty there, so that your fans (if they exist) at least don't assume the worst.

You don't even have to explain it, not really. If he would have just left his username active, with an empty bio and no stories, that would've been something. At least I could assume he packed up and left. At least I could have validated his existence. But to wipe everything away? I was so shocked that I couldn't find anything, any reference to him. There should have been evidence. The story was immensely popular in its fandom. Even long after he's gone, there should still be mention of him around, you know? I felt very mildly betrayed, and a little scared.

Sorry, this comment didn't go anywhere. But I see what you're saying, all right.