Plagiarism debacle hits parts of LotR fandom; Cam ponders

[misscam]

I came across this as several people I know are involed, and as such it's caught my interest. Not just because it's a fandom I was in, but also because some of the points raised in the debate got me thinking.

So. Once upon a time three hugely sucessful movies were made of a extremly influencial book. Lord of the Rings made new lust objects, gave New Zealand a hot name, sparked a massive fandom expansion and oh yeah, streams and streams of fanfic.

Among that was a fairly large load of slash, and one popular pairing was Aragorn/Legolas - probably mostly sparked by how it was played in the movie. This is turn sparked Viggo Mortsensen/Orlando Bloom fanfic. One popular writer therein was namarie120. Apparently one of her popular fanfics A Hidden Passion was "based on" Jane Eyre. Said fanfic is apparently retooled and briefly published as original fiction.

(For those wondering where I was at the time - RPF was never my thing, but I did dabble in Legolas/Gimli now and then, as I was a hardly book-fan originally, and I knew a lot of people who wrote various slash pairings and also RPF. Never knew namarie120 personally, though it is possible I've interacted with her at some point.)

It gets denounced as plagiarised.

caras_galadhon picks up on it and makes a post.

And wham! it goes. Anger at the plagiarism, friends showing up to defend namarie120, arguments over how much 'based on' covers, accusations of meanness, accusations of letting namarie120 off easy due to BNF status and fandom particpation, anger that namarie120 won an award at slashy_oscarsfor this fanfic, wankery and on and on.

Various reactions elsewhere:
- Telestilla is not happy.
- namarie120 is removed from the list of winners at slashy_oscars.
- An interesting post on plagiarism versus fanfiction.
- miladyhawke wants namarie120 to be cut some slack.
- Fandom_wank post.

Yowza.

But there are some interesting things I ponder in here, amongst them:
Is plagiarism the fandom big-bad from which there simply is no recovery?
What is the acceptable response when you've done a bad?
Is there a difference in how plagiarism is dealt with depending on how popular someone is in fandom?
Are some forms of plagiarism more serious than others - for instance, is it worse to steal from another fanfic and try to conceal your theft than to borrow from a popular published work and be lacking in your acknowledgement and citation?
Is otherwise stellar fandom participation reason to cut some slack?
What do you do when someone you really like has done a bad?

Hmm.

I mean, plagiarism is a bad, but I am pretty sure I do judge cases a bit differently depending on circumstances. I found the Cassie Edwards case now recently to be a bit extra iffy because plagiarism was shown to be so widespread through all her work, instead of being an one-off. I will react more favourably if at least an acknowledgement is attempted and the author is being more dumb than out to decieve. And how the author reacts to it will also colour my reaction - as will how defenders behave.

How about you? Opinions, thoughts? I am curious.

(And hey, I can finally use my Faramir/Eowyn icon and it being on topic. Hurrah!)

Comments

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

Is plagiarism the fandom big-bad from which there simply is no recovery?

I think it's up there with fandom's biggest no-nos, though not quite as likely to get you ripped to shreds as trying to directly profit from fanworks (I've yet to see a plagiarism wank as huge as the row over cousinjean). Maybe that's why Crystalwank went so huge, as it combined both elements.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

The outrage at the profit-angle is probably partly to do with feeling that would be a threat to fandom in general - TPTB are a lot more likely to strike down on fan ventures that they feel are cutting into their profit, after all. Plagiarism, while denounced, doesn't carry that same potential threat.

And hoo yeah, I remember the cousinjean thing.

[who_la_hoop]

I think plagiarism is the ultimate big-bad in fiction - whether fandom or otherwise. Once I find out someone's plagiarised, I refuse to read their stuff, and lose all respect for them. If you quote chunks of a published work, or someone else's fanfic, in your work and don't acknowledge this - well, you're an idiot, in my opinion. There's no way you could not know you're doing wrong.

I don't know the details of this case, so I can't really comment - "based on" isn't plagiarism in my opinion (Wide Sargasso Sea by Jean Rhys, also based on Jane Eyre, is one of my favourite books), but wholesale lifting of passages and sentences is.

I don't know what I'd do if one of my friends did it. Depends on whether they tried to brazen it out, or were truly sorry and embarrassed about it, I think.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you're definitely right it goes beyond fandom - recent reactions to published authors caught plagiarising certainly shows that.

The first post I linked to does contain side-by-side examples of sentences, dialgues and large chunks of text that are word-by-word lifted from Jane Eyre and stuck into the fanfic in question. Which I would say a 'based on' isn't enough as acknowledgement for.

I think I've seen Wide Sargasso Sea as a movie, because I am suddenly filled with images in my head.

Yeah, I think whatI do would depend a lot on what my friend said or did, and of course how long I'd know the person. The more you like them, the more you'd be inclined to overlook or forgive, though at a certain point I think you might get upset if a friend do something unforgiveable by your standards than if a stranger had done it.

[denorios.livejournal.com]

I think plagiarism is the ultimate big-bad of writing, whether it's professionally or for fun. You can hardly call yourself a writer if you're copying someone else's work. I used to practice typing when I was a kid by typing out my favourite books, but that didn't make me a writer!

Having said that, I don't personally believe originality is all it's cracked up to be - hell, Shakespeare nabbed most of his plots, but at least he made them his own. But copying scenes and phrases and entire sentences almost identically - that's just plagiarism and these days you'd have to be an idiot if you think you can get away with it. The internet is watching!

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's definitely harder to slip stuff by in this day and age, but as the Cassie Edwards thing showed, there isn't a lack of people who thinks copying entire phrases and paragraphs entirely is a-okay.

Them poor stolen ferrets.

[cbackson.livejournal.com]

It's definitely the ultimate big bad to me. And I'd say that, if anything, someone with a history of being very involved in fandom should be treated *more* harshly, because s/he is more likely to know to rules and to know that what s/he's doing is wrong.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I guess it depends a bit on how the fandom or if the fandom has dealt with plagiarism before. If it's a fandom where plagiarism has been heartily denounced and had several cases of it, then you at least can't pull the 'But I didn't know it was wrong!!!' In general, everyone should know from early on it's Not Done, but I can believe some people just don't know how to cite properly. Even people at University can be dumb about that. If say, author A, gets called on doing crap acknowledgement, and actually takes it to heart and does it right next time, I'd probably be less harsh, even if I thought the author should have known better from the start.

But that is a far cry from say, taking someone else's entire story and change names, then slap your name on it. There is no excuse for that ever.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

The problem IMHO IMHO IMHO is that most plagiarists repeat in public the excuses they've been making to themselves for months/years.

I think you could survive plagiarism if you said:

1. Yes, I did it.
2. It was wrong. I screwed up. No justification.
3. I'm sorry.

Then go away for a bit. Don't ANNOUNCE you're going away, just go away. A few months will do.

4. Write a new fic and announce in the header that it's been betaed by [trusted fan] for plagiarism.

In my fannish experience, nobody has ever gone straight for step 2.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think refusing to acknowledge or apologise for plagiarism makes people be angry about it a lot longer. It's harder to keep justified rage on someone who is just taking it, rather than someone who responds with aggression. Or if friends do it. I think most known plagiarism wanks have had either author or friends of the author get extremely aggressive in response.

But to write again after plagiarism would be hard even with your step four. reinventing oneself or changing name would probably be the only way not to be met by it at every turn.

[partly-bouncy.livejournal.com]

Is plagiarism the fandom big-bad from which there simply is no recovery?

You know, I think there will always be plagiarism defenders who think that all fan fiction is plagiarism and will defend the practice. There is also the cult of nice, which insists that everything be peaches and cream in fandom and making waves and harshing on the squee is bad. They'll defend plagiarists on those merits. Given that, I think that in some places, enough people don't see a problem with that that they may never really take a hit or they can recover in a few weeks.

What is the acceptable response when you've done a bad?

As some one who has done bad, I think it is all context specific and really does matter who is carrying the pitchforks. There are things I've done where I could grovel, make nice, put public tear filled apologies on YouTube, and leave fandom... and people would still hate on me. If some one else were to do that, they might be forgiven and people might forget. It just really depends.

On an unrelated note, if you know about other plagiarism incidents, plagiarism article on Fan History (http://www.fanhistory.com/index.php/Plagiarism) could use more examples and details regarding how fandom responded to it.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, how you feel about a person in advance is going to influence how you respond to things like that. I mean, if a person that has gotten seriously on your nerves do something that gives you an opportunity to go at them and release some frustration you've stored for a while? Hard to resist that. Not to mention that disliking the person in the first place might make you interpret things in the worst way you can.

So as you say, it can depend.

Erm, we've had some cases in Doctor Who fandom that I know of, though I'd have to go back and refresh my memory. First thing that springs to mind was Emeryboard (sp?) who got kicked off the Teaspoon for plagiarism, which her friends didn't take in their stride at all. Been some others as well.

[partly-bouncy.livejournal.com]

So as you say, it can depend.

Yeah. So many factors and it depends on people's ideologies, what they stand to gain by keeping quiet or speaking out,etc. One of the people coming down on this latest case is some one I know I've seen defend plagiarism before as "It is just fan fiction" and "They cited their sources." Reading that just makes me go arg and while I agree with what they're now saying, I'm just having issues taking that person seriously. (Which is one of those guilty thing because it has nothing to do with plagiarism and everything to do with personal issues.) So easy to do.

Been some others as well.

There is always something going on. Inuyasha just had a case which, outside mentions on I believe the kagness mailing list and two LiveJournals got no play in wider fandom and the author's plagiarized work were quickly removed, the site it was housed on taking more firm action to clearly indicate that PLAGIARISM and ART THEFT not tolerated. That has had an interesting mixed reception. Some people are YAY! and some people are bwa? Why ARE THEY DOING THAT? The confused segment seems to have mostly high schoolers. The YAY! GET THOSE PLAGIARISTS! seems to be mostly college grads.

Things are just so... decentralized in fandom that hard to know what is going on. And LiveJournal and blogs don't really feel like a good place to centralize because that information gets pushed down and attention can't be kept focused. Things fade in memory.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

There's nothing so horribly annoying as having to agree with someone you dislike and wish to have nothing in common with, heh. And yeah, been there, had that happen. Just goes to show how coloured our perception can be of other people, which will again effect how we judge their actions.

I would expect people at college and University who has been beaten over the head with the importance of citing your sources to have more of a 'YAY STOP PLAGIARISM!' thinking, so that doesn't suprise me.

Things are just so... decentralized in fandom that hard to know what is going on. And LiveJournal and blogs don't really feel like a good place to centralize because that information gets pushed down and attention can't be kept focused. Things fade in memory.

A reason why you've set up Fan History, I'm guessing?

[partly-bouncy.livejournal.com]

Just goes to show how coloured our perception can be of other people, which will again effect how we judge their actions.

Yep. And it can be difficult and annoying to remember that people can change, learn, adapt, grow as individuals and do stupid things that they regret later. It is just hard to put that into put that into practice sometimes.

One of the people I had the biggest fall outs in my fannish experience with back in 2001, who I was annoyed with over so many different idealogical things and other things is some one who I now regularly go to in order to solicit another opinion regarding how things are done.

And I guess this kind of gets back to the whole plagiarism thing: Can plagiarism ever be forgiven? Yes, but generally requires some understanding that they've changed their behavior and others are willing to believe that.

A reason why you've set up Fan History, I'm guessing?

Fan History was created out of an extension of Writers University which was originally on FanFiction.Net where the purpose was to provide people with some idea about how fandom functioned. The history component was moved to its own subproject on schtuff and then moved to media wiki script on its own domain in order to get more involvement because I realized it was important to do get more involvement as the history of fandom is really, really complex and you can't get an accurate picture unless you have a lot of people involved.

In the almost two years that Fan History has been on its current host, I've discovered a number of dead fandom history projects, on larger fandom levels like Anime and Comics, on smaller levels like the Daria fandom and X-Files. I've seen some fantastic information shared in comments of blogs, in LiveJournal entries. They're great but their static and hard to reference later. People can't really edit them and can't search them. And that makes me sad. :( (So much of the StrikeThrough and BoldThrough and current situation haven't been documented to any large degree because no one is doing it or 15 people are doing it for their own journal entries.)

The recent LiveJournal incident is one of the reasons why this project (http://www.fanhistory.com/index.php/User:FanFictionNetBot) was done on Fan History. It is going to run afoul of conflicting fandom ethics and expected and tolerated behavior and will likely wank at some point. I remember about 9 months ago, some members of the CSI fandom got upset with FanWorksFinder linking to any of their fannish content with out their permission as it can harsh on the author's squee if it isn't where they can control it, where people can say negative things about authors and their work, or invade their privacy. That situation got to the point where some one threatened to sue FanWorksFinder for linking to them. It is sticky to try to centralize that information in a way that will make everyone happy because some people don't see providing that information as a service. Others will love it and see it as a great way to keep interest in their work, make their stuff more readily accessible, etc. *babbles*

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

First, that essay/post on fanfic and plagiarism is amazing. I'm gonna have to bookmark it for future reference and further consideration.

Second, to me plagarism is The Big Bad. There are levels (coming up with a brilliant line and including it in a story only to realize later that you'd actually read it somewhere is different from copying huge chunks of text - regardless of the source), but any plagiarism is a betrayal and depending on severity and how it's handled grounds for banishment.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it was linked on metafandom, which was how I found all the other links. It is quite interesting deeply passions can run on plagiarism issues, both in those condeming it and those defending the author accused of it. And then I realised that gehayi, who is on my friendslist, was the one who wrote the intial blog about it and suddenly I'm recognising names left and centre. Fandom cross-pollination is a curious thing, heh.

I do agree with you that there are definite levels in terms of plagiarism. We did have a case in Norway of some very popular history books that got accused of plagiarism, but it was a case of poor, dodgy citation habits more than anything else. Guy got blasted fairly because as a historian, you're supposed to know to cite your source, but it was still to me something slightly different to taking someone else's story and attaching your name to it. Levels, as you say.

[visp.livejournal.com]

I'd say that fiction plagarism counts as pretty bad. It's lying and stealing, and for no real need either. I mean, if a student is totally drained and tries to lift a few paragraphs for a research paper, that's bad, but not without mitigating circumstance. Plagarizing fiction is just utterly disrespectful IMO. Disrespectful of your fans, of the previous author and of the art of writing in general.

Also, it's not like I know an author by anything other than their work. Hence, I won't read any more of their work, and will be very distainful of them as people.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there's quite a bit of arguing going on about mitigating circumstances for the case I linked above, but that does seem to stray sometimes into arguing action versus person. I mean, there's those coming from the side of 'plagiarism is bad, mmkay' and those coming from 'but she's a nice person, get it', which I guess comes down to a general issue of how much do you mitigate a bad thing done by a nice person?

And yeah, good point that writers tend to be known by their work rather than personality - but in fandom with its interactions across, that ain't always the case.

[padawanpooh.livejournal.com]

As a teacher I am totally intolerant of plagiarism - too many students are getting reliant on copy & paste and too many of my colleagues are allowing it so students think it's acceptable.

It's stealing pure and simple, and that goes for fandom, or any uncredited use/theft of ideas.

Of course, there are no new ideas out there, and certainly within fandom similar situations, PWP's, fanon cliches etc are inevitably going to come up, and we unconsciously absorb the content of fanfics that we adore in the same way that we absorb original fiction/films etc.

Unconscious echoing of ideas and honest coincidences are one thing, and of course are totally forgiveable - if they're spotted and pointed out to the author the author should hold their hands up and admit it. Deliberate and considered copying or derivation is always wrong: it's stealing - and whilst it may not be an Unforgiveable it's damned close and for me at least the author would have to earn back trust as a RL thief would have to.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I think you're very right to do that - if you get used to getting away with it from school on, it's the sort of thing that can get you into serious trouble in your work. I mean, those journalists who have been caught it are now pretty much dead professionally.

And I think most agree that copy&paste plagiarism is a different thing to unconscious echoing. The latter happens, particulary in fandom where writers are often also readers. That's how certain 'fanon' things come to be, after all.

[butterfliedgsr.livejournal.com]

I think that plagiarism of any form is completely unacceptable-- it doesn't really matter if it's fanfiction or not, or if she has cited that it iis based on Jane Eyre or not. If she has lifeted random chunks of text from the original books, out of quotations, then she's plagiarising and that's simply wrong. I also think that all fandoms are pretty intolerant of plagiarisers, whether it's a one-time thing or not. There was a case a couple of months back on ff.net where a girl (in the CSI/GSR fandom) was plagiarising from a populars author's work--and it wasn't the first time it had happened it was stamped out pretty quick. I also don't thin kthat the fact she is a big participator in the fandom excuses her in any way, because, in fact, if she was so well recognised she would be giving that fandom a bad name. It's fine to quote from a work, or to sasy that it was a prompt for ideas, but to simply transfer lines and plot into a different situation is wrong.

Sorry. That makes no sense whatsoever.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Is that the Trace-whatshername girl? Last I heard she actually pulled her plagiarism stunt *again*. I mean, once is bad enough, but when after getting slammed for it you pull the same sort of copy&paste with her name attached to again? That takes some serious balls, and not of the good kind.

[butterfliedgsr.livejournal.com]

lol. Yeah, that's her. She did twice in about six months. She jsut kept deleting reviews, and I think she's been suspended from ff.net

[childofares.livejournal.com]

Some of my fav fanfics were "based on" elements of popular novels.

However

Those folks gave credit and indeed, encouraged people to read those books as well. Also there is a diff in taking elements from, and copying word for word from someone elses work.

I'm curious at what the author responds with.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

She either deleted or locked down her LJ, I think, which I'm sure people will interpret in widly different ways. (Some as a sign of guilt, some as a bullying thing, etc etc.)

I'm sure it won't be the end of the matter there.

[dreamingwriter.livejournal.com]

In an attempt to answer some of your questions without sounding like just-another-fanfic-writer:

After you plagerize and someone notices it and points it out to fandom (or real life, depending) there will always be some distrust with whatever you write because of it. Even if you apologize publically and admit that you were wrong and answer questions there will not be the same level of reader interaction/good response. It crosses a line of trust fandom has. Just because we borrow these characters doesn't mean we can borrow pieces of text from other's work.

Personally I don't understand plagiarism in fandom. If you want to use chunks of someone else's story don't post it online, even if it's amazing and you have to share. And don't change names and try to get it published. But if you want to know how they came up with the idea/ why they're such a great writer, leave a comment or send them a personal message. I'm sure they'd rather talk to you about it than have something like this happen.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I agree with you that this sort of thing does stick with an author - I mean, the plagiarism cry comes up whenever Cassie Claire is mentioned. It's not a label you can easily toss off, but it would depend on the particulars of what the fandom is like, how clear-cut it is (or if not clear-cut at all and thus a matter of heated debate), how it's dealt with by people of influence in the fandom, etc etc.

Plagiarism in fandom is motivated a lot by wanting attention and praise, even if it's not for you own actually work, I suspect. Writing well-liked fanfic is a definite way of getting friends, attention and fandom recognition, after all.

[kosmickway.livejournal.com]

And in I jump ... and, BTW, this post has presented me with an excellent opportunity to teach my sophomores about plaigarism. I'm glad you brought it up. I won't use your words or post anywhere in my class ... I'm simply printing off the original article from "Speak Its Name."

IMHO ...

Is plagiarism the fandom big-bad from which there simply is no recovery?

YES. There is SO much room to maneuver in fanfic that there's no need to go ripping someone's words and phrases line by line and piece by piece from a classic author, a fan fic author, or even from the show/movie itself. I always tell my kids that if they didn't write 3/4s of the words in a sentence, they need to cite it. Point blank. Period. No excuse. There is SO much creative room to maneuver that plaigarism simply becomes the mark of a shoddy author and a no-talent hack.

What is the acceptable response when you've done a bad?

'Fess up. Apologize. Don't do it again. Give back any and all awards that piece won.

Is there a difference in how plagiarism is dealt with depending on how popular someone is in fandom?

There shouldn't be. But there is. The fan fic realm, as in every other bloody place on Earth, is a popularity contest. If it came out that a popular and talented writer at Geek Fic was plaigarizing, there would probably be a lot of people rushing to defend her, whereas a relative newbie to Geek Fic like me wouldn't have any defenders. It really is a popularity contest-- it sucks, but it's the truth.

Are some forms of plagiarism more serious than others - for instance, is it worse to steal from another fanfic and try to conceal your theft than to borrow from a popular published work and be lacking in your acknowledgement and citation?

When you're a kid like my little sophomores, you make mistakes. I don't penalize them the first time they do it ... they could have legitimately made a mistake. But when you're a fanfic author who's been posted on comms and at various sites as long as so many of these people have, you know the rules and that, to me, is far more serious. Knowingly, willfully stealing someone else's words and using them for your own, including the kind of "well, let me change a bit here and a bit there" that this chick attempted to do is HUGELY serious and totally uncalled for. A mistake is a mistake. A theft that's covered up is someone who knows better trying to get away with something.

Is otherwise stellar fandom participation reason to cut some slack?

Nope. If you're any kind of writer worth your salt YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER! Nothing should excuse or exonerate you.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

:) Cool as. Do let me know if any of your students have something interesting to say, I'm curious how they'd see it.

re: popularity contest - while I think you're right that indeed popular writers tend to get defenders when accused, I also do think that a popular writer can get more backlash when accused by plagiarism than a newbie would. Simply because people might feel angrier over it because it is someone they might have liked or respected - or because it's someone they now feel has 'stolen' popularity. So yeah, popular writers might get more defenders, but they can easily also get much more negative attention over it.

As for mistakes - I do agree that citation, particulary the sort of standard you need to have for University is something that you have to learn. I'm not going to slam a fanfic writer for not doing it to University standards, because it's not a given he or she has learned it. But I would expect some effort at least.

[wendymr.livejournal.com]

I've encountered plagiarism twice in my previous fandom - the first time I was the one who exposed it. Both times, the plagiarists copied from novels. The first plagiarist was very popular among certain sections of that fandom, while the second didn't 'socialise' much and wasn't that well-known.

When the first plagiarist was exposed, for a time all the flak was aimed at me for exposing her and a few others for expressing horror and condemnation. From those who had admired her work, there was almost no condemnation of the plagiarist, and even when we provided scans of one of the plagiarised novels some were still claiming it wasn't plagiarism. Like some of the posters on that thread you cite, others wanted us to 'cut her some slack' and forgive her. She did pop up a few days later and posted a heart-rending apology - which included some 'mitigating facts' which later turned out to be a lie. Yet people still wanted to forgive her. Her posting privileges were reinstated a year later, and the first fic she posted turned out to be plagiarised again, and she was banned. Yet, still, the group who exposed her were regarded as the bad guys and unable to forgive.

The second plagiarist was, as I said, relatively unknown as a person. She was uniformly condemned. I knew her a bit better, and I'll admit that I was very angry and responded unkindly to an email from her looking for support - but, admittedly, she was denying most of the charges.

In both cases, if the people concerned had posted a sincere-sounding mea culpa statement and apology would people's reactions have been different? Probably. Most plagiarists, in my experience, don't apologise. They don't acknowledge that they've done wrong. They don't acknowledge that it was their own choice to do what they did and they knew it was wrong.

Everyone makes mistakes; how we're judged for those mistakes depends on how we try to make up for them. That's why I can't buy the pleas of 'she's a lovely person and we should just forgive'. I believe in forgiveness, but I believe that it has to be preceded by a genuine attempt to show contrition. Does miladyhawke (and others) not believe in holding people accountable for their actions? Forgiveness without an acknowledgement that you did something wrong is very, very bad for human development - that's why we teach children to say sorry before we forgive them.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, some of what you describe seems to be happening in this case - I see a lot of anger directed at caras_galadhon in the comments to her post.

But man, if you pull the same thing twice there's really no excuse at all. Come back a year later, knowing what got you into trouble the first time and what so many had said was not!okay and do it again?

I'm impressed by teh dumb in that case. Seriously, WTF? Twice?! Did she have a severe fandom death wish or something?

And I think mea culpa statements are terribly hard to do - even if you know you've done a wrong, human pride is a very strong thing that makes it hard to back down. Probably why so many fandom grudges last so long too. But yeah, as I said in another comment, it's harder to sustain anger towards someone who admits wrong and doesn't fight back. It's a bit like:

A: You did bad! FEEL MY ANGER RAWR. BAD I SAY BAD!
B: Yes, I agree.
A: And don't you deny it! ... Right, you didn't. Erm. Did I mention it was bad?

Forgiveness without saying sorry... Hmm, I dunno, I think there are some thing I would fogive a friend or a relative even if they didn't do a mea culpa. I wouldn't feel happy about it and probably I'd be a bit resentful towards them, but I would forgive them.

HOWEVER, I think what and how you forgive things is such an individual choice that you shouldn't slam people for forgiving - or not forgiving. Everyone has something they feel is more an affront than others and trying to guilt people into forgiving just like that I find a bit uncool, apology or not.

And if apology is not given, I think most at least would find it decidedly harder to forgive, and with reason.

[cincoflex.livejournal.com]

Tough topic, great answers--and no real resolution as far as I can see. Speaking as one who has had a story blatantly plagiarized, I can tell you that *my* level of tolerance is pretty low . . . I worked hard to write the story I did, and having it used for someone else's credit and fandom did piss me off. An apology from the person though, would have been a good start both for them and for me. (it didn't happen)

I go with the thought that plots, situations and storylines are blurry and universal--just because Shakespeare did Romeo and Juliet doesn't mean that every fanfic writer who does a star-crossed lovers tale needs to credit the Bard. Now if they lift entire speeches, turns of phrase and dialog, that's plagiarism.

When I've used a particular plot that I know was inspired by an author or a book--and I know I have in several fics--I truly do try to give credit where credit is due. It saves a lot of accusations later, and more often than not wins readers who go to look up those authors and books later.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've had some cases as well, and lotus79 had a blatant case of someone just changing names of the characters and slapping her own name on it. When she was confronted about it, she had a total fit, which didn't exactly endear me.

As you say, an apology can go a long way and better safe than sorry in terms of what you acknowledge can save a lot of grief.

[thunderatiger.livejournal.com]

Wow, this post certainly caught my attention. I think part of it is the fact that I've been blatantly plagiarized twice (that I know of), so I tend to take notice whenever the subject of plagiarism comes up. I have no knowledge of the current situation so I can't speak to whether or not it was an actual incident of plagiarism. But speaking of plagiarism in general, I can say that from the standpoint of the one being plagiarized, it hurts. It's kind of this strange gut squirm when you see your own words framed in a different storm, and then the squirm gets worse when people praise the other author for their work. Really, it's a very odd feeling.

However, I don't think that plagiarism is the end of existence. jonquil has a list of possible remedies for those doing the plagiarism, and though certainly an odd occurrence, I can report that one of the instances in which I was plagiarized ended almost like that. An apology was made, the author quietly vanished for a bit, and then she returned with new and original stories. The last conversation we had was very genial, so while it is a big deal, it's not a complete and utter travesty provided that the offending party is willing to make amends.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

That's nice to hear - though total bummer to have been ripped off in the first place. Some people do claim it's supposed to be a compliment, but I seriously think it's the sort of compliments one can do without.

As remix challenges show, it is actually possible to use elements of a story and write something totally new, and to the original author's enjoyment too. But in those cases people are willing, and credit is very much given.

[siraj.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone who had their best English class assignment plagarized by over half of their class... I personally think plagarists need to be beaten with Nerf bats.

Buuuuut I'm biased. Horribly, horribly biased.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Ouch. Sucks to hear :(

And yeah, having personal experience with it can change your perspective of it, as with most things.

[siraj.livejournal.com]

Thankfully, the professor was darned sharp, and knew my writing style, called me in before class... and asked me if my report was, well, mine. I answered yes, and he had me look at a couple more... of which there was quite a pile. I was surprised I'd been plagarized at all. I said "I see..." and he nodded and told me to head for class, he'd be following shortly.

We got to class, sat down, and he said "You were all warned about plagarism when you began this course. It seems many of you didn't listen" and he began going down each row, naming off students and saying "you flunk."

He got some nasty phone calls from parents over that, but he laid it out for them and said he wasn't going to back down. Took a couple calls to the cops to get the nastier parents to bugger off, but he was one of the best guys I've ever had for a class.

[lotus79.livejournal.com]

Yay Easter! Have you gone on holiday, too?

*sends hugs of missing-you-ness*