On female character and fandom - with woes, icon maker wanted, flu worries and no to naked hiking

[misscam]

So there was this secret posted over at fandomsecrets and this resulting huge discussion. With bonus slash mentions.

Now granted, it is very possible to dislike a female character due to the writing of her - finding it sexist, unrealistic or otherwise. But if you can't find even one you like? Then I start to think it's a deeper issue.

See, the problem with sexism isn't just that it lingers in a good deal of men - women can be incredible sexist about women. Old shit lingers, and a lot gets fed into us as young. Sadly, we often pass it on. (We being humans in general, in this case.) Prejudice, sexism, general stupid - hoo yeah.

I've seen female characters get raked over coals for things male characters get a pass on. I've seen flaws turned into vilification. And my own pet peeve, sexual slurs used against women (whore, slut etc) when the character might not even be that sexually active. And even if she is, it's still nasty. (Because really, sex being used against women as if it's something wrong with them? Deeply troubling on several levels.) I've seen female characters get slammed if they're not badass, if they are badass, if they're feminine, if they have "too much balls", if they're pretty, if they're not pretty enough, if they're selfish, if they're selfless and thus deemed "pushovers", if they don't rise above society's prejudices, if they do rise - being too "above their station", gag me with a spoon.

It bugs me. Because too often it's impossible standards and too often male characters get tons of admiration for 'being flawed' when female characters get only judgment. And often fics that smack them around some.

Now, I'm not saying you must love all female characters or be sexist. There are characters I don't like, or are indifferent to. But I do think that sometimes, it's good to consider your own motivations and what prejudices might linger in you.

There's a lot of old shit out there. That doesn't mean we have to accept living with the smell. If you can't even find one female character to like, maybe it's time to clean a little.

Meanwhile, here are some female characters I love - with their flaws, for their flaws, despite their flaws and sometimes all three at once. (Some - these are not all my favourites, just some of them.)

Galadriel. Passes her own test to not take the One Ring even when offered, and keeps her kingdom safe until the end of times. Also a little scary.

Laura Roslin. Proof that it is possible to grow into unexpected responsibility and also that responsibility carries a heavy toll. Realistic and pragmatic and a little scary as President, also lovely to see her heart with Bill.

Donna Noble. Rude and ginger. Perhaps in some ways considered "average" by people around her, but you know what? Average people have a lot of awesome in them. There's just not always the chance to develop it or show it. Donna did. (And under here, I could have put so many of the Doctor's other companions too.)

Miranda Bailey. Bailey is scary, strict and one to make your life hell if do something fucking stupid. Because caring is not always the same as being nice constantly. Bailey kicks ass, and is awesome at it - and a loving mother at the same time.

Tyrande Whisperwind. Arrogant and occasionally bitchy, Tyrande has lead her people as priestess and warrior both. She'll make her own decisions, and even if her heart - Malfurion - sleeps in the emerald dream, she stays hands-on to guide the night elves into a future without immortality.

Barbara Havers. A lot of people would count stuff against her. Working class, family issues, pain in the ass about accepting authority, unflattering wardrobe and trying to hold her own in a male-dominated police force. Therefore, it's all the more admirable that most of the time, she does hold her own.

Lady Sybil Deidre Olgivanna Vimes (née Ramkin), Duchess of Ankh. Kind, compassionate and darns socks despite being rich as whoa. Married to Sam Vimes, which in itself is grounds for awesome, but I love Lady Sybil because she has the fortune to do everything she wants and still chooses to do things for other reasons. Could probably run the whole Discworld with her friends from schooldays if they don't already.

Feel free to add your own female characters you deem awesome.

I'm looking for an icon maker again. Yeah, I know. Am willing to pay, etc. It's one icon for a friend of mine, and a lot of WoW icons from screencaps I have and a few BSG ones. Poke me if you're interested.

So the world is really worried about flu outbraks in Mexico. With only twenty confirmed deaths (so far), it does come across a bit like hysteria at first, but then I read a book last week about the great flu pandemic of 1918 - and I'll take hysteria over ignoring outbreaks, quite frankly. I like people. I don't want millions to die. Just don't freak the frak out totally, yeah?

Swiss canton decides to fine naked hikers. What truly made me boggle was the small note about how conservative this canton was and women got the right to vote in 1990. Um. Wow. 1990? I even remember 1990. I broke my hand at school that year. Ow.

So sexism? It ain't that dead and it ain't that ancient.

Meanwhile, my shit weekend of shit continued that way and also included my team losing their match, my knee acting up and my guild doing a stupid amount of wiping in Ulduar when trying Boss With Most Annoying Voice Ever. Sigh.

This morning, it rained and NSB was up to the same stupidity as always. That's three times in one week, which is bad even for them. I swear, if I don't get just one happy yay thing soon, I'm going to go emo Viking and sulk in my longboat for a week. Or something.

Comments

this is probably not the usual response

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

Fuck, that discussion pissed me off. OP is sexist, fine, OP has gender issues, fine, OP probably needs to sort out their head, all fine. Running in with a battleaxe to hack off the OP's knees because you know, you just know that they're incurable sexist fuckheads who can't possibly have reasons in their personal history, fandom or otherwise, that might explain their beliefs...not so fine. And battleaxing at people who call for reasoned conversation? Very much not fine.

Courtesy is dead and I am bitter. And I don't even agree with the OP, though the characters that I truly ♥ are not in that picture.

Adding to the list!

Harriet Wimsey née Vane, from the Lord Peter Wimsey series. Erudite, intelligent, has mother-wit, brave, sweet, fights to be true to herself. Thinks about things, thinks about the way she thinks about things. Doesn't let herself fall into a relationship with the man she suspects she loves anyway, because she thinks it'll diminish the both of them. How awesome is that? Generally, she wins.

Damn near any female character Pterry has written recently, as other people have said. Witches (Tiffany included), Sacharissa (♥), Night Watch girls, you name it.

Integra Hellsing, from Hellsing, i.e. my current obsession (o lol). Duty-bound. Understands sacrifice. Understands self-control. Passionate. Fierce. Takes no shit from fucking anybody, which is saying something considering how many raging batshit crazy maniacs there are in this series. Can shoot, can stunt-drive, can wield a sword, and all of those very very impressively. Hilariously snarky.

And, oh--Luthien. Self-explanatory.

Re: this is probably not the usual response

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

...That was ambiguously phrased, wasn't it? I don't mean that it's fine that the OP is all of those things, cos it ain't, I mean saying that about the OP is fine. Oops.

Re: this is probably not the usual response

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I think part of the reason for that reaction is that that sort of sexism is a prevailing thing in many fandoms and people just get fed up and angry. I know I get into a good rage about certain things sometimes.

Though in general, I do tend to favor a bit of reasoned conversation. Hostility isn't always helpful, if justified.

Re: this is probably not the usual response

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

I understand that, and there are many things that trigger my rage, too. Hell, as a more-often-than-not het-shipper (I don't know why, it just works out that way) this has especial reason to piss me off. But...overblown reactions don't help. If you really wanted to change things, if you really wanted to get rid of sexism, you'd tamp down on rage and get into constructive discussions. Or, you know, you could rage, but politely, and without the amazing ad homs, that's also fine. Otherwise random fury is just, literally, wanking. Paladin behaviour: save it for rpgs.

And honestly, why that secret didn't piss me off is because I didn't get any sort of vibe that the secret-maker was actively spreading this sort of thought around. I mean, it's...a secret, it sounds very much like the sort of opinion you just have but keep to yourself. I should get mad over everyone in fandom who doesn't have sensible thoughts? Ye gods, I'd give myself an aneurysm.

Re: this is probably not the usual response

[misscam.livejournal.com]

If you really wanted to change things, if you really wanted to get rid of sexism, you'd tamp down on rage and get into constructive discussions

Now that I find a bit unfair as statements go. Constructive discussions? Doesn't always go anywhere. And if you've tried to have them for a very long time, at some point frustrations just kick in. I don't think rage is about a lack of want to change things. (And every now and then I think the fierceness of a reaction can tell people something about how unacceptable it is.)

I mean, I agree in general that you should try as much as you can to keep it on a reasonable level. I try to live by that myself - even on the issue of rape, I try to explain why certain attitudes about it are so not right, but it can be really hard to keep enough emotional distance to be reasonable about it. We're emotional as a species and first responses tend to be the emotional ones. The more reasonable discussions often come after, when people have gotten a little bit of distance.

And as I said elsewhere, I think that secret got the reaction it did because it sums up a certain trend in fandom which does get spread around, and painfully so.

Re: this is probably not the usual response

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

Apologies; lots of apologies, actually. I really should have been more specific. If you're going to rage, rage at the trend, not the individual.

Every situation is a new one; if you've talked to someone and they don't stop being jerkfaces, then you're allowed to smack them. But if you haven't even started conversation, and you break into a rage because other people have previously been jerkfaces, that's...bad.

We are emotional as a species, but we should strive not to be so. And if you are claiming the moral high ground, that puts even more responsibility on you.

It does, and it's aggravating, but a trend is composed of individuals and in each individual there might be a chance of change, until they have marked themselves as irredeemable. Then, then, I would gladly condone righteous smackdowns. But not before.

Re: this is probably not the usual response

[misscam.livejournal.com]

There I agree. Getting personal rarely helps. But I do think sometimes a person comes to represent a trend, willfully or otherwise, and I can understand by people react a certain way. Sometimes, that's the only outlet for your frustrations you can see. Doesn't mean I condone it.

But just because people get into a rage and make hasty judgments doesn't mean I return the favor, if that makes sense. I try to understand where they are coming from as well. And I know I get really, really tired sometimes of trying to change certain asshat opinions, because it feels like a job and it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be all your effort to make someone not be a dick, you know? I can very much understand it just getting to a point where you don't want to be reasonable anymore, because you're really tired, it gets you nowhere and you just get angry.

Maybe it isn't always helpful. But I know I get really tired of being helpful at times.

And really, being emotional is not all bad. The key is to find a balance between the various parts of us.

Re: this is probably not the usual response

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

Yeah, responding to rage with rage is even more counterproductive. I agree with you about trying to understand them. That's fair. And yes, I hear you on getting tired. But then one should just...walk away.

Mm, I prefer the Vulcan approach a lot of the time, personally.

Re: this is probably not the usual response

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

fandomsecrets is not the place to find or expect courtesy, though.

Re: this is probably not the usual response

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

I got that eventually. Took me longer than it should have, but.

Re: this is probably not the usual response

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

There are places to have good debate. And then there is fandomsecrets. :D