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misscamSo there was this secret posted over at ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
fandomsecrets and this resulting huge discussion. With bonus slash mentions.
Now granted, it is very possible to dislike a female character due to the writing of her - finding it sexist, unrealistic or otherwise. But if you can't find even one you like? Then I start to think it's a deeper issue.
See, the problem with sexism isn't just that it lingers in a good deal of men - women can be incredible sexist about women. Old shit lingers, and a lot gets fed into us as young. Sadly, we often pass it on. (We being humans in general, in this case.) Prejudice, sexism, general stupid - hoo yeah.
I've seen female characters get raked over coals for things male characters get a pass on. I've seen flaws turned into vilification. And my own pet peeve, sexual slurs used against women (whore, slut etc) when the character might not even be that sexually active. And even if she is, it's still nasty. (Because really, sex being used against women as if it's something wrong with them? Deeply troubling on several levels.) I've seen female characters get slammed if they're not badass, if they are badass, if they're feminine, if they have "too much balls", if they're pretty, if they're not pretty enough, if they're selfish, if they're selfless and thus deemed "pushovers", if they don't rise above society's prejudices, if they do rise - being too "above their station", gag me with a spoon.
It bugs me. Because too often it's impossible standards and too often male characters get tons of admiration for 'being flawed' when female characters get only judgment. And often fics that smack them around some.
Now, I'm not saying you must love all female characters or be sexist. There are characters I don't like, or are indifferent to. But I do think that sometimes, it's good to consider your own motivations and what prejudices might linger in you.
There's a lot of old shit out there. That doesn't mean we have to accept living with the smell. If you can't even find one female character to like, maybe it's time to clean a little.
Meanwhile, here are some female characters I love - with their flaws, for their flaws, despite their flaws and sometimes all three at once. (Some - these are not all my favourites, just some of them.)
Galadriel. Passes her own test to not take the One Ring even when offered, and keeps her kingdom safe until the end of times. Also a little scary.
Laura Roslin. Proof that it is possible to grow into unexpected responsibility and also that responsibility carries a heavy toll. Realistic and pragmatic and a little scary as President, also lovely to see her heart with Bill.
Donna Noble. Rude and ginger. Perhaps in some ways considered "average" by people around her, but you know what? Average people have a lot of awesome in them. There's just not always the chance to develop it or show it. Donna did. (And under here, I could have put so many of the Doctor's other companions too.)
Miranda Bailey. Bailey is scary, strict and one to make your life hell if do something fucking stupid. Because caring is not always the same as being nice constantly. Bailey kicks ass, and is awesome at it - and a loving mother at the same time.
Tyrande Whisperwind. Arrogant and occasionally bitchy, Tyrande has lead her people as priestess and warrior both. She'll make her own decisions, and even if her heart - Malfurion - sleeps in the emerald dream, she stays hands-on to guide the night elves into a future without immortality.
Barbara Havers. A lot of people would count stuff against her. Working class, family issues, pain in the ass about accepting authority, unflattering wardrobe and trying to hold her own in a male-dominated police force. Therefore, it's all the more admirable that most of the time, she does hold her own.
Lady Sybil Deidre Olgivanna Vimes (née Ramkin), Duchess of Ankh. Kind, compassionate and darns socks despite being rich as whoa. Married to Sam Vimes, which in itself is grounds for awesome, but I love Lady Sybil because she has the fortune to do everything she wants and still chooses to do things for other reasons. Could probably run the whole Discworld with her friends from schooldays if they don't already.
Feel free to add your own female characters you deem awesome.
I'm looking for an icon maker again. Yeah, I know. Am willing to pay, etc. It's one icon for a friend of mine, and a lot of WoW icons from screencaps I have and a few BSG ones. Poke me if you're interested.
So the world is really worried about flu outbraks in Mexico. With only twenty confirmed deaths (so far), it does come across a bit like hysteria at first, but then I read a book last week about the great flu pandemic of 1918 - and I'll take hysteria over ignoring outbreaks, quite frankly. I like people. I don't want millions to die. Just don't freak the frak out totally, yeah?
Swiss canton decides to fine naked hikers. What truly made me boggle was the small note about how conservative this canton was and women got the right to vote in 1990. Um. Wow. 1990? I even remember 1990.I broke my hand at school that year. Ow.
So sexism? It ain't that dead and it ain't that ancient.
Meanwhile, my shit weekend of shit continued that way and also included my team losing their match, my knee acting up and my guild doing a stupid amount of wiping in Ulduar when trying Boss With Most Annoying Voice Ever. Sigh.
This morning, it rained and NSB was up to the same stupidity as always. That's three times in one week, which is bad even for them. I swear, if I don't get just one happy yay thing soon, I'm going to go emo Viking and sulk in my longboat for a week. Or something.
fandomsecrets and this resulting huge discussion. With bonus slash mentions.Now granted, it is very possible to dislike a female character due to the writing of her - finding it sexist, unrealistic or otherwise. But if you can't find even one you like? Then I start to think it's a deeper issue.
See, the problem with sexism isn't just that it lingers in a good deal of men - women can be incredible sexist about women. Old shit lingers, and a lot gets fed into us as young. Sadly, we often pass it on. (We being humans in general, in this case.) Prejudice, sexism, general stupid - hoo yeah.
I've seen female characters get raked over coals for things male characters get a pass on. I've seen flaws turned into vilification. And my own pet peeve, sexual slurs used against women (whore, slut etc) when the character might not even be that sexually active. And even if she is, it's still nasty. (Because really, sex being used against women as if it's something wrong with them? Deeply troubling on several levels.) I've seen female characters get slammed if they're not badass, if they are badass, if they're feminine, if they have "too much balls", if they're pretty, if they're not pretty enough, if they're selfish, if they're selfless and thus deemed "pushovers", if they don't rise above society's prejudices, if they do rise - being too "above their station", gag me with a spoon.
It bugs me. Because too often it's impossible standards and too often male characters get tons of admiration for 'being flawed' when female characters get only judgment. And often fics that smack them around some.
Now, I'm not saying you must love all female characters or be sexist. There are characters I don't like, or are indifferent to. But I do think that sometimes, it's good to consider your own motivations and what prejudices might linger in you.
There's a lot of old shit out there. That doesn't mean we have to accept living with the smell. If you can't even find one female character to like, maybe it's time to clean a little.
Meanwhile, here are some female characters I love - with their flaws, for their flaws, despite their flaws and sometimes all three at once. (Some - these are not all my favourites, just some of them.)
Galadriel. Passes her own test to not take the One Ring even when offered, and keeps her kingdom safe until the end of times. Also a little scary.
Laura Roslin. Proof that it is possible to grow into unexpected responsibility and also that responsibility carries a heavy toll. Realistic and pragmatic and a little scary as President, also lovely to see her heart with Bill.
Donna Noble. Rude and ginger. Perhaps in some ways considered "average" by people around her, but you know what? Average people have a lot of awesome in them. There's just not always the chance to develop it or show it. Donna did. (And under here, I could have put so many of the Doctor's other companions too.)
Miranda Bailey. Bailey is scary, strict and one to make your life hell if do something fucking stupid. Because caring is not always the same as being nice constantly. Bailey kicks ass, and is awesome at it - and a loving mother at the same time.
Tyrande Whisperwind. Arrogant and occasionally bitchy, Tyrande has lead her people as priestess and warrior both. She'll make her own decisions, and even if her heart - Malfurion - sleeps in the emerald dream, she stays hands-on to guide the night elves into a future without immortality.
Barbara Havers. A lot of people would count stuff against her. Working class, family issues, pain in the ass about accepting authority, unflattering wardrobe and trying to hold her own in a male-dominated police force. Therefore, it's all the more admirable that most of the time, she does hold her own.
Lady Sybil Deidre Olgivanna Vimes (née Ramkin), Duchess of Ankh. Kind, compassionate and darns socks despite being rich as whoa. Married to Sam Vimes, which in itself is grounds for awesome, but I love Lady Sybil because she has the fortune to do everything she wants and still chooses to do things for other reasons. Could probably run the whole Discworld with her friends from schooldays if they don't already.
Feel free to add your own female characters you deem awesome.
I'm looking for an icon maker again. Yeah, I know. Am willing to pay, etc. It's one icon for a friend of mine, and a lot of WoW icons from screencaps I have and a few BSG ones. Poke me if you're interested.
So the world is really worried about flu outbraks in Mexico. With only twenty confirmed deaths (so far), it does come across a bit like hysteria at first, but then I read a book last week about the great flu pandemic of 1918 - and I'll take hysteria over ignoring outbreaks, quite frankly. I like people. I don't want millions to die. Just don't freak the frak out totally, yeah?
Swiss canton decides to fine naked hikers. What truly made me boggle was the small note about how conservative this canton was and women got the right to vote in 1990. Um. Wow. 1990? I even remember 1990.
So sexism? It ain't that dead and it ain't that ancient.
Meanwhile, my shit weekend of shit continued that way and also included my team losing their match, my knee acting up and my guild doing a stupid amount of wiping in Ulduar when trying Boss With Most Annoying Voice Ever. Sigh.
This morning, it rained and NSB was up to the same stupidity as always. That's three times in one week, which is bad even for them. I swear, if I don't get just one happy yay thing soon, I'm going to go emo Viking and sulk in my longboat for a week. Or something.
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no subject
Date: 2009-04-28 08:58 am (UTC)Fandom is not totally removed from real life, though. Changes in society and attitudes will come into fandom too. And I think there's plenty of sensible people in fandom and attitudes can change there too.
In general, I'm a cynical optimist. Don't ask me how that works.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-28 09:11 am (UTC)I guess it's just unfortunate that all the extreme, crazy people in fandom are also the loudest.
No, no, I get it... and I'd describe myself as one, too. We're people who always hope for the best, but have an understanding that it will be a long hard road to get to that point, with much, much wankery along the way.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-28 09:24 am (UTC)That's fandom and RL for you both. (Ugh, Fred Phelps.) I know I'm guilty of highlighting batshittery myself. It's just... More newsworthy than 'hey, sane people exist too'? And I guess mocking it is my way of not wanting to stick sharp, pointy objects into my head over it.
Yes. Damn, that's the best description of it I've heard. I can never explain it properly to other people. I'm going to have to steal that one, hah.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-28 09:35 am (UTC)If you were given the opportunity, though, I'd fully support you sticking sharp, pointy objects into ol' Freddie's head. :D
Steal away! I am happy to have been of service.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-28 10:11 am (UTC)Hah. I don't think I'd aim for his head, honestly, if I got the chance. Hateful gitty asshat that he is.
:D
no subject
Date: 2009-04-28 06:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-29 06:44 am (UTC)