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misscam*looks down* I updated slash, I did. Prologue is here here. I know, Raven's Song was supposed to be my only slash, but... well, it was just so hard not to when the plotbunny came.
Also, Merc did a MST of a certain plagiarist. Tis here
We've both been naughty, as you can see.
Also, Merc did a MST of a certain plagiarist. Tis here
We've both been naughty, as you can see.
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anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-04 09:52 pm (UTC)This girl behaved responsibly by giving credit to you. I understand that you could feel upset by her using your ideas without your permission, but Tolkien never gave you permission, either.
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-04 10:13 pm (UTC)That'd be the integral difference, y'see. :D
Anyone with more knowledge of copyright law is welcome to step in and correct me. *waits for the inevitable correction*
Same anonymous
Date: 2004-01-04 10:34 pm (UTC)And when you're writing a school paper, you take sources, often even word for word, without permission from the creators, and it's only plagiarism if you don't credit the original source.
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-04 11:52 pm (UTC)Uh, no. We're not.
We ARE violating copyright, yes. No question of that. But the stories we write are written by us. We write in another's fictional universe, but we use the canon of that universe as a jumping-off place to explore things that the original author did not explore or has not yet explored.
A plagiarist is someone who steals the work of another, or who copies the ideas of another in a way that is virtually identical to the source material.
I recall one girl on FFnet who posted the first four chapters of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone as her own work. The only addition she made was the creation of a Mary Sue. Other than that, "her" story was identical to the first portion of the first book.
I also recall a number of stories on FFnet which copied the scripts of the LOTR movies and of Buffy TV episodes. One that I recall in particular was a murder mystery in which every other line--this is not an exaggeration--was stolen verbatim from this or that script. The story was original...but the author was stealing the words of professional screenwriters to tell it.
This particular girl ripped off Miss Cam (who created the concept of fanfiction universities) and Meir Brin (who writes the Hogwarts Fanfiction Academy stories). This would be bad enough, but look at the girl's "disclaimer":
This is a disclaimer, to state I am fully aware I am creating this with a Harry Potter University already in place. Thus, I shall edit my set up.
(Reason as to why I write this with full understanding that it's wrong is that I had so many ideas, and so many grievances against Harry Potter writers, that I wanted to write this. Apologies to Meir Bryn)
"With full understanding that it's wrong." Please note those words.
In view of the many spin-offs of OFUM, I can see why Miss Cam would want to make sure that those writing the tales of the fandom universities can write, and write well. The fanfiction universities are supposed to teach people about good, canonical writing, the avoidance of Sues, the difference between fanon and canon, the use of correct mechanics (spelling, grammar, capitalization and punctuation), accuracy, good research, etc. Moreover, Miss Cam is known for creating the notion of fanfiction universities; a poorly written, ungrammatical, Netspeak-strewn piece of tripe would reflect badly on her. Nor is it fair to Meir Brin, who not only got authorization but who writes excellent stories, in and out of her fanfiction university.
Is it fair to either of them to have their work ripped off and imperfectly copied?
Should someone whose ideas of punctuation, grammar and spelling are scanty at best, whose writing needs to be run through the Department of Redundancy Department, and whose tale creates a plothole in the first chapter be telling other people how to write?
I don't THINK so.
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-05 08:12 am (UTC)Is it illegal? That, again, is a no.
Similiarilly, many things are wrong without being illegal, including writing a story using concepts that someone else thought up without their permission.
Let's look at the dictionary.com definition of plagiarism: "n 1: a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work 2: the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own," Emphasis mine.
Is she presenting Miss Cam or Meir Brin's ideas as her own? No, because she's crediting the source.
You're right, it's not fair, it's not right, but it's neither illegal nor plagiarism.
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-05 10:40 am (UTC)You do not seem to grasp the difference between plagiarism and violation of copyright.
Violation of copyright is playing in someone else's universe while stating that the universe is not your creation. Fan fiction violates authors' copyrights. Fanfiction authors usually get away with it because they are not deriving any profits from their writings, and because it would cost the original writer more than it is worth to prosecute said authors.
However, occasionally professional authors go after fan fiction writers, or ban all fan fiction. Anne Rice has gone after more than three hundred websites and fan writers. J.K. Rowling's solicitors issue cease and desist letters against those who write X-rated Harry Potter stories. Anne McCaffrey has banned RPGs that didn't conform to her vision of Pern.
And if the Tolkien estate wanted to, it could order FFnet to delete all of the LOTR and Silmarillion stories because they violate J.R.R. Tolkien's copyright.
While violation of copyright is playing in someone else's universe while stating that the universe is not your creation, plagiarism is copying another's work or stealing ideas without crediting the source. I gave examples of copying existing works word for word. Here's an example of stealing an idea without crediting the source:
Let's say that you really, really like LOTR. And you decide to do a story based on that, about a Gnilflah from Nottibboh named Odorf who owns this shiny magical necklace that her aunt left to her, and her friend, the powerful sorceress Fladnag, advises her to go on a quest far to the west, through the vast and noisome jungles of Rodrom, to the deepest canyon in the world and fling the necklace into that canyon...
Now, in that case, the genders have been switched, the names are written backward, the One Ring is now a necklace, the wasteland of Mordor is now a jungle, and Mount Doom is a canyon. But would anyone reading it doubt that the story is an uncredited rewrite of LOTR? I sincerely doubt it.
As this girl did NOT credit the source. Miss Cam is not mentioned in her "disclaimer," and there are only vague "[a]pologies to Meir Bryn [sic]" without any explanation of what is being apologized for.
You may not like it. But it is indeed plagiarism.
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-05 11:45 am (UTC)Quoted from the MST: "This means that although it is a spin off of OFUM,
Mercuria: Spin, rip, same difference.
and all the other wonderful creations that work has sparked,
Aila: How sweet of her. How terribly sweet.
it is not in any way authorised by Camilla Sandman, unfortunately."
Hence, the source of the work is credited, in black and white.
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-05 07:35 pm (UTC)Miss Cam explicitly states that all spin-offs are a no-go unless she gives permission. So if it's morally acceptable for your friend/alias/rival/relative to go against her wishes, then by all means, continue to rationalize.
-the writer of the MST, with apologies to Miss Cam if neither of my posts is appreciated.
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-05 08:02 pm (UTC)I said it wasn't plagiarism. Because, you know, it's not, unless someone finds me a definition or a shred of evidence that she was trying to pass someone else's work off as her own, when she states right at the very beginning exactly where the idea is coming from.
Just 'cause she doesn't encourage fanfiction about her works doesn't mean it's plagiarism.
You can take exception to it, you can tell the writer you disapprove, if you have the copywrite, by all means drag it out. But don't go around shutting down all the stories that disappoint you under the false pretense of punishing plagiarism, unless there actually is some plagiarism involved.
You were fully in the right to disapprove, but being in the right is not a blank check to say whatever you want. When you and Cam and the others make things up to justify your position, that's just wrong, even if you have a right to dislike that behaviour.
If you consider it morally right to lie, you can continue your rationalization, too
-Zach, the only name I have currently.
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-05 08:24 pm (UTC)I didn't shut down her story, either. All I did was mock it, and I fail to see how that makes me a liar.
Oh, wait. You mean by calling it plagiarism.
Look, can you email me if you want to talk about this? fairytaledemon@yahoo.com
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-05 08:48 pm (UTC)-Zach
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-05 11:51 pm (UTC)"Actions not allowed:
Multiple entries of the same material. There can only be one copy of any unique story on the entire site. No exceptions.
Rewriting names of characters/locations of one story in order to upload to multiple categories.
Copying from a previously published work without approval aka plagiarism."
Note the without approval bit.
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-05 08:52 am (UTC)Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-05 08:02 am (UTC)Technically, the girl was irresponsible for plagiarising the story anyway, so your defence definitely isn't rock-solid in that respect.
Tolkien never gave us permission, that's true. But
~armeniel xxxx
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-05 08:18 am (UTC)You can't disprove my arguement by stating your own again, only louder.
Re: anonymous because of no livejournal account, not cowardism
Date: 2004-01-05 08:26 am (UTC)You didn't answer my question, though... You don't need a code, so you could get an lj account for free. It's easy enough. Or at least leave a name at the end of the post. I'm sure you are not a coward, but it does seem cowardly when you don't leave even a name or email at the end of an anonymous post.
Even better, don't take up this argument with me. As
~armeniel xxxx
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Date: 2004-01-04 11:08 pm (UTC)Legolas/Gimli! Yes!
And I am most delighted that the plagiarist's tale was taken down.
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Date: 2004-01-05 11:07 am (UTC)I second that last statement!
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Date: 2004-01-06 01:02 am (UTC)You pervert, you.
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Date: 2004-01-07 11:02 am (UTC)*Minimises screen and goes back to reading Slashy!Anime smut*
XD
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Date: 2004-01-07 05:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-07 06:54 pm (UTC)(Slashy anime! Mine!)
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Date: 2004-01-07 11:33 pm (UTC)Just to clear up a few things-
Date: 2004-01-05 11:16 am (UTC)Whoever was defending my stance point, thanks, whatever- Point is, I knew I was skating on thin ice. By crediting Miss Cam's original piece and Meir Brin (I couldn't spell it at the time, I apologise heartily for that faux pas) I am legally, (discluding copyright law) not guilty - I am not attempting to pass work off as my own, or copying it- however, I did acknowledge that I knew the concept was shaky.
I wanted to play around with the idea, wrote it, then checked out Miss Cam's site, -thereby seeing the Meir Brin spin off- and decided to post anyway, adding a note on Meir Brin in the profile. I had hoped that although it had the single OFU character to start off with, I could make the college idea significantly different, and would have checked that I didn't inadvertently steal concepts from Meir Brin.
I emailed Miss Cam, letting her know of the story - I did not believe myself to be 'guilty' as such, but common courtesy indicated I should tell her, She let me know in no uncertain terms that she considered what I had written to be plagiarism, and, I quote,
' Do we really have to report this to ff.net or are you going to be reasonable
and take it off? I don't want to have to make a big fuss and get it
reported, but I will if you do not remove it or seriously rework it.'
I agree with the person who stated that it was not plagiarism to use the format of the OFU to start off with, having credited those involved, however, with the fanbase, and the fact I knew this was a very fine line, I removed the story myself, and subsequently, will work on other projects.
I appreciate Miss Cam allowing me to delete the story myself - and also, not sic-ing the minions and friends she has on me - though looking at the journal entry, she obviously has. Amusing, I thought I'd caught spelling mistakes, and grammar errors and the like, but the 'fandom goddess' line I was averse to, I wasn't attempting to write as such, if it truly came across as that, I bow my head in shame. I know that ff.net's system works on the basis of if there are many complaints on a story, that story will be removed - so I don't know if it would be removed if it had remained.
Final point, I promise. I appreciate you don't get many taken-to-pieces authors coming back to defend themselves. I agree with that person who defended me in saying 'just because you say it's plagiarism doesn't make it as such' or something to that effect. It wasn't, in the legitimate sense, however, with Miss Cam, Meir Brin and the other OFU authors offended and insulted by the story, and the fact that I had acknowledged my highly delicate right to create such a story, Miss Cam and such were entitled to raise questions.
But the MST- I didn't appreciate so much. T'was amusing, but not as so as the PPC. Standards falling?
AM
Re: Just to clear up a few things-
Date: 2004-01-05 02:13 pm (UTC)Anyway . . .
I realise this topic has been fairly wrung out by now, but I just had to say my piece.
Firstly, a question for the as-yet-unnamed apparent plagiarist: (I think you called yourself "AM"?) Just curious, but you know that doing what you did wasn't the best idea, right? But you were comfortable enough with the idea to a) admit in your A/N that you were wrong, and b) email Miss Cam to tell her. All I want to know is, why didn't you choose to email her, asking for permission first? Forgive my naivete here, but if you honestly felt your story would be significantly different, why not ask Meir Brin to do a spin-off of her spin-off of Miss Cam's spin-off of Tolkien's LOTR? There are some fandoms with two OFUs. There are thousands of options: you could do the equivalent of an MUSM, you could do from a different perspective, you could ask Meir Brin if you could work with her . . .
I mean, I get where you're coming from (please don't kill me, minions. I love Miss Cam's stuff and worship her but I can --slightly-- sympathize here); I've often wished myself that the Potter OFU hadn't been done (though Meir Brin did a fantastic job) myself. But why didn't you even bother to try and find out whether or not you could do a spin-off?
--Nora
my email is bookworm92389@yahoo.com
my ff.net account is EvilGenius92389
my AIM is the same
Re: Just to clear up a few MORE things-
Date: 2004-01-05 07:55 pm (UTC)As for the rest of it: You knew that what you did was wrong, since you said so in your A/N, and I'm not really inclined to buy any new explanations of the situation.
(Although I agree, maybe "plagiarism" isn't the most accurate term for this situation ... "borrowing without permission" is perhaps more appropriate.) (Thank you, Jack Sparrow.)
And if you'd like to respond to anything I've said (especially about the MST, as I'm sensing that's a sensitive subject for you), feel free to IM me at Mercuriazs or email me at fairytaledemon@yahoo.com- although, as you seem to be fearing reprisals, perhaps that's a bit too much to hope for. (Really, though, I would appreciate it- as someone else has pointed out, we're only wasting Miss Cam's space.)
Re: Just to clear up a few things-
Date: 2004-01-06 12:59 am (UTC)See, the reason for the 'one OFU per fandom' does not have anything to do with me personally as such. I mean, I find people wanting to do stories inspired by me quite flattering. That someone would find my work inspiring is a nice thought. It's like a minor ego boost free of charge.
But because there are actually spin-offs that use a lot of the OFUM concept, I believe that two in the same fandom could very easily led to problems. First off, they might start competing. Secondly, they will start touching on the same things and sooner or later there might be enough similarities between them that one or both will get miffed - and then you'd have it. And if there was three or four or five in the same fandom - well, the risk of such a thing would just grow and they'll overlap. And I don't want that kind of mess. *That* is why I have said no to some people asking permission. As long as the fandom is unclaimed, I'd okay it whoever asked (as you'd see if you scanned the spin-off list - not all of the spin-offs have been all that great).
That said, there has been exceptions. Hell, within HP itself there has been an exception, as someone approached me about a slash angle to it, and Meir Brin and I decided it was different enough that it would not overlap with hers. Had you perhaps e-mailed me to *ask* and point out why your take on the HP fandom would be different - well, I would have at the very least had a chat with Meir Brin and see if something could be worked out. As far as I'm concerned, the more spin-offs, the merrier. (The PPC, for instance, is much more open to any and all to write, as it deals with individual stories and will therefore always spawn different approaches.)
And sure, there has been times when people have bored minor things from my stories (like mini-Balrogs) and not really asked beforehand, just credited me. It doesn't really bug me that much on the minor things, but I do like to be asked. I've put it as a requirement for doing a spin-off because of the reasons I listed above (also, actually borrowing the whole OFU concept is a pretty major borrowing) - and ff.net does actually list getting approval as a requirement for being allowed to copy from others in your story. You posted your story on ff.net, thus it is their rules that apply in the end. (Which can be a bit of a bugger admittedly - I was not thrilled about the removal of NC-17 fics myself, or some of the other posting restrictions.)
However, I do think that the real problem wouldn't be you ripping me off as much - but ripping off Meir Brin. You made no hints to how you were going to make it different to hers aside from a title difference (if you had, I'd probably have be more kindly inclined, so to speak) and your first chapter was very alike any other OFU (rather countering your argument that you were going to make it different. Maybe you would have, but how am I to know from teh first chapter and you giving me no information?). Thus, by being set in the same fandom as HFA, you would have sooner or later taken something from her tale. The fact that you didn't even think to alert her was rather troubling for me - I mean, it doesn't matter much to the readers of OFUM whether there's 23 spin-offs or 24, but it will matter to Meir Brin that suddenly a story appears that is borrowing the *very same concept* and thus is in danger of being similar.
And yeah, I was a bit offended. OFUM is dear to me, and when people take without asking it feels like I've been stolen from. It's not a very good feeling.
You have my e-mail if you have any complaints. Or find me on AIM. It's not like I am hard to track down. In any case, my LJ is hardly the best place.
Re: Just to clear up a few things-
Date: 2004-01-06 06:13 pm (UTC)*has returned to loving Miss Cam, take that as you may*
-Zach
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Date: 2004-01-05 06:41 pm (UTC)I like the pace of the scene and the way you have captured the language of the characters.
Very good. I like it very much.
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Date: 2004-01-07 05:30 pm (UTC)Chapter one is two paragraphs away from being done. Go me.