Miss Cam is very, very angry

[misscam]

What kind of shit is this?!

Seriously, what the hell is this Abu Ghraib thing?

So I've been following this lovely little tale of Abu Ghraib, Saddam's notorious prison which has now gained yet more notority. And this time it can certainly not be blamed on Saddam.

American soldiers humiliating and torturing Iraqi prisoners. Now there is a lovely image. And apparently this was investigated and a report on it was finished in *March* (and apparently Mr. Rumsfeld had not yet read this report by May 4th). The more I hear about this, the more disgusted I get. And if this turns out to be part of some wider practice (which some do suggest, but proof will have to be put forward to show if it is true or not), woe betide the US government.

Links, in case you've missed the story:
The Pentagon reaction.
Bush to speak to Arab TV on the scandal.
BBC on the report into prison abuse.
Aftermath in Falluja.

You know, this is getting worse than any of my very gloomy pre-war Iraq predictions. I feel like I'm watching a trainwreck. Whatever good the US has done in Iraq gets eaten up by scandals like this. How the hell did this happen? And it's especially bad now that the US government is trying to sell that this war was for humanitarian reasons (given that those pesky WMDs turned out to be rather ghostly) and you get images like that. An image is worth a thousand words and right not all those thousand words are all slamming the US. The Pentagon can talk about rotten apples all they like (and even be right about it) and that image of smiling Americans next to humiliated and abused Iraqis will still be as clear as ever in people's mind.

This is just so not good. There's even been pictures of British soldiers involved in abuse as well, though their authenticity has been questioned, so I guess it remains to be seen on that account. If it's true, woe betide the British government as well.

And of course, the sovereignty the US talked about giving on June 30th turns out to at best be a kind of half sovereignty, if that. It'll still be the US army that is the real power in Iraq. And from sneering at the UN and lob not-too-inventive insults at it, the US is now busily trying to draw it back to Iraq. Troop numbers that were to be reduced turned out not to be reduced at all, an ex-Saddam military commander sent to fix the problem of Falluja... All this just screams 'making it up as we go along' to me. Maybe I'm wrong and there was some great plan here, but I'm certainly not seeing it. I see rising deaths and rising anger and neither is filling me with confidence about where this is going.

I mean, Abu Ghraib, for crying out loud. Saddam's own little torture prison, one of the very symbols of his badness. Now with American soldiers abusing Iraqis. I mean, the link there is just appaling. And that aside, it's just appalingly stupid too. Abusing prisoners where Saddam used to do so. Yeah, that's real smart.

So I say again: What kind of shit is this?!

And don't even get me started on the US-Israeli thing. I've run out of energy to hiss at Bush now (there's a first).

Good grief. Abu Ghraib, of all places!

Comments

Sorry, it gets WORSE.

[git-the-goddess.livejournal.com]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3564626&thesection=news&thesubsection=world

The Bush administration today tried to contain growing outrage over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, calling it "unacceptable and un-American," as officials revealed that Americans had murdered at least two detainees.

...

Army officials said the military had investigated the deaths of 25 prisoners held by American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and determined that an Army soldier and a CIA contractor *murdered* two prisoners.

An official said a soldier was convicted in the US military justice system of killing a prisoner by hitting him with a rock, and was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service *but did not serve any jail time.*


I refuse to believe this level of stupidity is accidental... perhaps their trying to stir things up in the middle east so that at election time the "Great War Leader" stays?

[pipibluestockin]

http://www.smh.com.au/ftimages/2004/05/04/1083635136859.html

I was saving this one up for a post of my own - but it might as well go here. Very black political cartoon.

[arabel.livejournal.com]

It makes me so thoroughly angry that I almost can't speak.

The excuses that are being thrown about are pitiful. And the culture of violence and propaganda that contributes to this sort of thing won't be addressed - they'll just get rid of those directly responsible and try to PR their way out of it.

No-one will ever be able to convince me that people are inherently good.

[beautyid.livejournal.com]

I am so, so very glad that Canada stayed out of this entire mess.

But apparently we still can't get away from it. Another Canadian was taken hostage in Iraq, I believe.

The whole situation seems to be getting worse and worse. First the deaths were overwhelming, then all the hostage-taking business, now this bullshit with Abu Ghraib?

This is very, very hypocritical of the US. And I know it's not the entire US doing it, but the people who are doing it, or the people who aided it, or covered it up, or stood by and did nothing. They always condemn other countries for doing shit like this, and then they go and do it themselves?

Well, everything about Iraq just disgusts me right now.

[belegcuthalion.livejournal.com]

I have seen the photos those soldiers made in prison. A german newspaper showed them in the net, and I refuse to put the link here, for that was yesterday evening, and I'm still feeling sick about it, angry and helpless.

Some of those men and women tried to defense themselves by saying that noone gave them rules what to do with the prisoners and what not. Fine. But what about their own conscience? Where was that silent voice that should have told them to leave those iraqui citizens alone instead of treating them as if they were cheap flesh? Naked bodies, obscenely arranged and this grinning, dumb faces, as if all that was a good joke.... (not to mention "real" injuries that seemingly have happened, too). Lucky enough, there was someone who didn't laugh.

I would like to say that I'm surprised, but I fear, I'm not. Not really. Give power in the wrong hands and to people who've never learned to respect other cultures and not to misuse their abilities, and things like that will happen. It happened in Germany and in Russia and the only difference (if there is any) is that this was done by people who claim to represent a country of shining democracy.

Again, I'm sad. But I'm not surprised.

[jocelyncs.livejournal.com]

It gets worse. All the media outlets are polling for the American public's reaction to this, and would you believe there is BARELY a majority of my country's population that says torture is never justified?! Would you believe there are people emailing and calling into the news stations and newspapers arguing that torture is RIGHT if it reveals "helpful intelligence."

Doesn't it occur to ANYONE that if you smack somebody around and humiliate them enough they will tell you anything you want to hear, whether it's true or not? How the hell does that help anything?!

I'm despairing, I really am. Bush's numbers are CLIMBING over here! CLIMBING!!

Cam, you feel like you're watching a train wreck? I feel like I'm riding the train!


Signed,

Jocelyn, a sad, frustrated, and (I will admit it) desperately ashamed American

War Crimes

[agent-tweed.livejournal.com]

Brigadier General Janis Karpinski needs to be sent to the World Court for War Crimes and voliation of The Geneva Conventions. I have her wanted poster on my LJ.

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Yuck... we've been talking for days about this in the message board I moderate at, everyone's disgusted (except for one newbie who claimed it was made up by anti-war protesters... uh, right, it's a bit dangerous for anyone to just make up claims like this!) Some of us can sit here from what we know of America and psychology in general (if you've ever heard of those studies about how people do what their superiors tell them no matter how they feel about the acts, or that being put in certain positions of power turn them into sadistic bastards) and say that this isn't really an American or British thing to do to prisoners so much as a twisted human one in war, but fact is, Americans and maybe British are doing it now, after saying it's bad, and that's all some people need to know before hating all Americans and British, and that's further complicating an already complicated mess.

As the (anti-Bush's war) administrator who posted this story at the message board said:

"Sadly, this is what all humans do in wartime..they act like nasty bastards--its happened throughout every single war. In this case, its just particularly horrific because we were supposedly going there to stop stuff like this. I'm mostly afraid for all the U.S. soldiers out there who are good people fighting because they do want to help others, but are now going to be seriously in danger. Stuff like this is only gunna scare Iraqi's and push the ones who were on the fence of "Is America evil or not?" into the "yes, they're evil." camp."

(And I'm guessing that "all humans" means "all kinds of humans, not just certain nationalities" rather than "Anyone who was once good would do it! Even me!")

...and when polls show that Americans back home don't mind trying to justify this sort of thing for whatever reason, that's really screwed up.

*angry sigh* I really want to give some people a piece of my mind right now, but I'm too burned out on anger.

[psychicsaphie.livejournal.com]

You said everything I wanted to say, Jocelyn.

I just cannot believe this shit...and then a careful re-examination of human nature makes it so I can. Shite, I hate all this.

Re: Sorry, it gets WORSE.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*rubs temples*

Yeah, I heard something about that, but unnamed sources tend to make me slightly sceptical of a story. It might very well be true, but for now I'm leaving it a bit up in the open. If it's true, it's an ungly sort of pattern we're seeing.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Rather twisted, yeah... but with a certain truth to it.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

We're not neccessarily inheritly bad either. I don't believe in God, I believe in evolution and nature. Nature knows only two things - life and death. As humans evolved we've made up morals and ethics and based our society on it, but like all things that we learn, we can choose to disregard it.

And then you get things like this and people like Osama bin Laden.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*nods* That is one of the main problems with this - the US goes to the world and tells us all how bad Saddam is for doing this like that, how bad the 'thugs' in Iraq are for attacking Americans now - and we see pictures like this. That says something. The problem with trying to be the moral high ground is that it's a very long fall if you do something bad. And it just looks a hell of a lot worse.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Europe has certainly seen what lows people in power can fall to all right. Germany in particular perhaps, but it's not like any country is free of it. And even sadder, people who have previously been opressed often take revenge by being opressive themselves. We're seen it in Rwanda in it extreme form and it's not exactly making one root for humanity.

Some of the anger in this case probably has to do with the US claiming to be that shining beacon of freedom and democracy that we should all look up to. Well, certain elements of the US, at least. It's not fair to judge a whole country on the action of its government, though we all do it at times. What a country's goverment does reflects back on the country, there's no way around that.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Torture is right in some circumstances? Right. That kind of thinking is just downright dangerous. If you say that torture is okay in some circumstances, you open the door for making it okay in other cirumstances. Perhaps torture will help criminals reveal their guilt? Helpful little thing, torture.

And then you have the kind of regime that Saddam ran where human rights only apply to those The Powers That Be deem human.

And you're of course right. Torture doesn't guarantee truth. It guarantees desperation.

*silently offers soft pillows to help soften the blow of the crash*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Join the crowd.

Whenever Neo-Nazis making some new shit, I feel ashamed for merely being Aryan. Not the greatest feeling in the world...

Re: War Crimes

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Ah, but the US has made it so that no American can be tried before that court.

[belegcuthalion.livejournal.com]

It's not fair to judge a whole country on the action of its government, though we all do it at times.

Only too true, and I do my very best to avoid that kind of misjudgement. It is a big help that I have a good number of american friends now(at least to keep a clear gaze...)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Well, I think it's partly a power thing. Look at what Europe did in colonial times. When you are The Power of the world, it must be very, very easy to think that the rules do not apply to you. You make the rules. You are the rules. And that's when it all starts going to hell.

War does bring out the very worst in us all. No one comes out all good. Perhaps the problem in this case was the very insistent claims from the US government that it was all good (and probably even thought of itself as all good) and suddenly wham-bam! the rotten apples are out of the basket and in plain sight.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I think there is a certain danger in Europe right now that the anti-American sentiment that is growing may target any and all Americans. Hardly fair. Half didn't even vote for Europe's most hated Shrub in the first place. But the government does speak for your country and therein lies the problem.

[flamingofeather.livejournal.com]

You're right. About the government reflecting on the country, I mean. Even though there's nothing I possibly could have done...I'm ashamed of my country. Er, not the country itself, because America is a beautiful place filled with (mostly) beautiful people, but it's the government people judge, not the purple mountain majesties and amber waves of grain. Because amber waves of grain aren't very interesting. Because the government should be able to stop things like this from happening.

I remember that ridiculous national outrage and proposed boycott agianst the French, because of something a few government officials said. Not something the vineyard owners and tour guides who would suffer if hundreds of Americans cancelled their vacations, but the government officials.

But those anti-French sentiments were a kind of inane retaliation against the anti-US feelings circulating around the rest of the world. Europe-bashing didn't help international policies a whit, of course. And it was unfounded and just stupid. People believed it, too. People believed that America was in the right this whole time...until now.

The United States has the stability and means to be a "beacon of democracy." Too bad it isn't and never was.

I want to move to Europe.

[flamingofeather.livejournal.com]

This...this...*struggles to find words*

I wish someone over here would just buck up and apologize and try to make things right for once instead of attempting to gloss everytihng over with stumbling excuses. There are no excuses for this.

Those polls make me sick. These are human beings we're talking about! Not commodities! Not playthings! Not...things to torture to glean "helpful information!"

I cannot believe that anyone would think so.

*points to Jocelyn's icon* There. That's my statement.

Re: War Crimes

[flamingofeather.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's lovely. It's almost like they knew something like this would happen. *narrows eyes*

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Can definitely see the power thing - and with all the "America is the best damn country in the world" propaganda we got our e-mail inboxes (and more) flooded with after 9/11, I'm not surprised if people are thinking that being American (or The Power of the World) excuses them from answering to others. Not only are we the big guys, we have 9/11 to point at and make us feel like we "deserve" to do things like this. We've got the big guns and the big armies, who's going to stop us?

...I really don't like that thought at all. O_o

I remember crying when I read All Quiet on the Western Front for 12th grade European Literature because of what it described happening to people during war. (Even the tough goth guys in the class admitted to crying at the end of that book.) My thesis paper after the book was on how war turned people into animals - not very hard to think of things to say about it and back up with citacions. I don't want to sit here and say that these people should get away with it, but I'm always trying to keep in mind that I'm sitting in a different perspective, I'm safe here (or can live feeling that way) and not in the middle of a war. (But I also have to say that "trying to put oneself in another person's shoes" probably has its limits with logic sometimes. :\)

[flamingofeather.livejournal.com]

Maybe now that everything has gone wrong, things will start going right...? I mean, the government has pretty much hit rock bottom as far as Iraq is concerned. Maybe now it can start going back up.

...Or being dragged back up. Because there is no way the government can stifle the global reaction. Propaganda really only works in one's own country.