Miss Cam is very, very angry

[misscam]

What kind of shit is this?!

Seriously, what the hell is this Abu Ghraib thing?

So I've been following this lovely little tale of Abu Ghraib, Saddam's notorious prison which has now gained yet more notority. And this time it can certainly not be blamed on Saddam.

American soldiers humiliating and torturing Iraqi prisoners. Now there is a lovely image. And apparently this was investigated and a report on it was finished in *March* (and apparently Mr. Rumsfeld had not yet read this report by May 4th). The more I hear about this, the more disgusted I get. And if this turns out to be part of some wider practice (which some do suggest, but proof will have to be put forward to show if it is true or not), woe betide the US government.

Links, in case you've missed the story:
The Pentagon reaction.
Bush to speak to Arab TV on the scandal.
BBC on the report into prison abuse.
Aftermath in Falluja.

You know, this is getting worse than any of my very gloomy pre-war Iraq predictions. I feel like I'm watching a trainwreck. Whatever good the US has done in Iraq gets eaten up by scandals like this. How the hell did this happen? And it's especially bad now that the US government is trying to sell that this war was for humanitarian reasons (given that those pesky WMDs turned out to be rather ghostly) and you get images like that. An image is worth a thousand words and right not all those thousand words are all slamming the US. The Pentagon can talk about rotten apples all they like (and even be right about it) and that image of smiling Americans next to humiliated and abused Iraqis will still be as clear as ever in people's mind.

This is just so not good. There's even been pictures of British soldiers involved in abuse as well, though their authenticity has been questioned, so I guess it remains to be seen on that account. If it's true, woe betide the British government as well.

And of course, the sovereignty the US talked about giving on June 30th turns out to at best be a kind of half sovereignty, if that. It'll still be the US army that is the real power in Iraq. And from sneering at the UN and lob not-too-inventive insults at it, the US is now busily trying to draw it back to Iraq. Troop numbers that were to be reduced turned out not to be reduced at all, an ex-Saddam military commander sent to fix the problem of Falluja... All this just screams 'making it up as we go along' to me. Maybe I'm wrong and there was some great plan here, but I'm certainly not seeing it. I see rising deaths and rising anger and neither is filling me with confidence about where this is going.

I mean, Abu Ghraib, for crying out loud. Saddam's own little torture prison, one of the very symbols of his badness. Now with American soldiers abusing Iraqis. I mean, the link there is just appaling. And that aside, it's just appalingly stupid too. Abusing prisoners where Saddam used to do so. Yeah, that's real smart.

So I say again: What kind of shit is this?!

And don't even get me started on the US-Israeli thing. I've run out of energy to hiss at Bush now (there's a first).

Good grief. Abu Ghraib, of all places!

Comments

Sorry, it gets WORSE.

[git-the-goddess.livejournal.com]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3564626&thesection=news&thesubsection=world

The Bush administration today tried to contain growing outrage over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, calling it "unacceptable and un-American," as officials revealed that Americans had murdered at least two detainees.

...

Army officials said the military had investigated the deaths of 25 prisoners held by American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and determined that an Army soldier and a CIA contractor *murdered* two prisoners.

An official said a soldier was convicted in the US military justice system of killing a prisoner by hitting him with a rock, and was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service *but did not serve any jail time.*


I refuse to believe this level of stupidity is accidental... perhaps their trying to stir things up in the middle east so that at election time the "Great War Leader" stays?

Re: Sorry, it gets WORSE.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*rubs temples*

Yeah, I heard something about that, but unnamed sources tend to make me slightly sceptical of a story. It might very well be true, but for now I'm leaving it a bit up in the open. If it's true, it's an ungly sort of pattern we're seeing.

[pipibluestockin]

http://www.smh.com.au/ftimages/2004/05/04/1083635136859.html

I was saving this one up for a post of my own - but it might as well go here. Very black political cartoon.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Rather twisted, yeah... but with a certain truth to it.

[arabel.livejournal.com]

It makes me so thoroughly angry that I almost can't speak.

The excuses that are being thrown about are pitiful. And the culture of violence and propaganda that contributes to this sort of thing won't be addressed - they'll just get rid of those directly responsible and try to PR their way out of it.

No-one will ever be able to convince me that people are inherently good.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

We're not neccessarily inheritly bad either. I don't believe in God, I believe in evolution and nature. Nature knows only two things - life and death. As humans evolved we've made up morals and ethics and based our society on it, but like all things that we learn, we can choose to disregard it.

And then you get things like this and people like Osama bin Laden.

[beautyid.livejournal.com]

I am so, so very glad that Canada stayed out of this entire mess.

But apparently we still can't get away from it. Another Canadian was taken hostage in Iraq, I believe.

The whole situation seems to be getting worse and worse. First the deaths were overwhelming, then all the hostage-taking business, now this bullshit with Abu Ghraib?

This is very, very hypocritical of the US. And I know it's not the entire US doing it, but the people who are doing it, or the people who aided it, or covered it up, or stood by and did nothing. They always condemn other countries for doing shit like this, and then they go and do it themselves?

Well, everything about Iraq just disgusts me right now.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*nods* That is one of the main problems with this - the US goes to the world and tells us all how bad Saddam is for doing this like that, how bad the 'thugs' in Iraq are for attacking Americans now - and we see pictures like this. That says something. The problem with trying to be the moral high ground is that it's a very long fall if you do something bad. And it just looks a hell of a lot worse.

[belegcuthalion.livejournal.com]

I have seen the photos those soldiers made in prison. A german newspaper showed them in the net, and I refuse to put the link here, for that was yesterday evening, and I'm still feeling sick about it, angry and helpless.

Some of those men and women tried to defense themselves by saying that noone gave them rules what to do with the prisoners and what not. Fine. But what about their own conscience? Where was that silent voice that should have told them to leave those iraqui citizens alone instead of treating them as if they were cheap flesh? Naked bodies, obscenely arranged and this grinning, dumb faces, as if all that was a good joke.... (not to mention "real" injuries that seemingly have happened, too). Lucky enough, there was someone who didn't laugh.

I would like to say that I'm surprised, but I fear, I'm not. Not really. Give power in the wrong hands and to people who've never learned to respect other cultures and not to misuse their abilities, and things like that will happen. It happened in Germany and in Russia and the only difference (if there is any) is that this was done by people who claim to represent a country of shining democracy.

Again, I'm sad. But I'm not surprised.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Europe has certainly seen what lows people in power can fall to all right. Germany in particular perhaps, but it's not like any country is free of it. And even sadder, people who have previously been opressed often take revenge by being opressive themselves. We're seen it in Rwanda in it extreme form and it's not exactly making one root for humanity.

Some of the anger in this case probably has to do with the US claiming to be that shining beacon of freedom and democracy that we should all look up to. Well, certain elements of the US, at least. It's not fair to judge a whole country on the action of its government, though we all do it at times. What a country's goverment does reflects back on the country, there's no way around that.

[jocelyncs.livejournal.com]

It gets worse. All the media outlets are polling for the American public's reaction to this, and would you believe there is BARELY a majority of my country's population that says torture is never justified?! Would you believe there are people emailing and calling into the news stations and newspapers arguing that torture is RIGHT if it reveals "helpful intelligence."

Doesn't it occur to ANYONE that if you smack somebody around and humiliate them enough they will tell you anything you want to hear, whether it's true or not? How the hell does that help anything?!

I'm despairing, I really am. Bush's numbers are CLIMBING over here! CLIMBING!!

Cam, you feel like you're watching a train wreck? I feel like I'm riding the train!


Signed,

Jocelyn, a sad, frustrated, and (I will admit it) desperately ashamed American

[psychicsaphie.livejournal.com]

You said everything I wanted to say, Jocelyn.

I just cannot believe this shit...and then a careful re-examination of human nature makes it so I can. Shite, I hate all this.

War Crimes

[agent-tweed.livejournal.com]

Brigadier General Janis Karpinski needs to be sent to the World Court for War Crimes and voliation of The Geneva Conventions. I have her wanted poster on my LJ.

Re: War Crimes

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Ah, but the US has made it so that no American can be tried before that court.

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Yuck... we've been talking for days about this in the message board I moderate at, everyone's disgusted (except for one newbie who claimed it was made up by anti-war protesters... uh, right, it's a bit dangerous for anyone to just make up claims like this!) Some of us can sit here from what we know of America and psychology in general (if you've ever heard of those studies about how people do what their superiors tell them no matter how they feel about the acts, or that being put in certain positions of power turn them into sadistic bastards) and say that this isn't really an American or British thing to do to prisoners so much as a twisted human one in war, but fact is, Americans and maybe British are doing it now, after saying it's bad, and that's all some people need to know before hating all Americans and British, and that's further complicating an already complicated mess.

As the (anti-Bush's war) administrator who posted this story at the message board said:

"Sadly, this is what all humans do in wartime..they act like nasty bastards--its happened throughout every single war. In this case, its just particularly horrific because we were supposedly going there to stop stuff like this. I'm mostly afraid for all the U.S. soldiers out there who are good people fighting because they do want to help others, but are now going to be seriously in danger. Stuff like this is only gunna scare Iraqi's and push the ones who were on the fence of "Is America evil or not?" into the "yes, they're evil." camp."

(And I'm guessing that "all humans" means "all kinds of humans, not just certain nationalities" rather than "Anyone who was once good would do it! Even me!")

...and when polls show that Americans back home don't mind trying to justify this sort of thing for whatever reason, that's really screwed up.

*angry sigh* I really want to give some people a piece of my mind right now, but I'm too burned out on anger.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Well, I think it's partly a power thing. Look at what Europe did in colonial times. When you are The Power of the world, it must be very, very easy to think that the rules do not apply to you. You make the rules. You are the rules. And that's when it all starts going to hell.

War does bring out the very worst in us all. No one comes out all good. Perhaps the problem in this case was the very insistent claims from the US government that it was all good (and probably even thought of itself as all good) and suddenly wham-bam! the rotten apples are out of the basket and in plain sight.

Oh, it gets worse...

[cloudofcalm.livejournal.com]

The hypocracy (sp?) of the British PM is even more astounding. There's a transcript of a conversation with Blair on the BBC website. Regular people email, and call to put questions to him. One person asks, why did you go to war with Iraq?

'Weapons of Mass Destruction, blah blah. Not withstanding the gross and unfair regime'

Somebody asks what happens if there are NO WMD. He hastily replies that they stand for liberty, and freedom and bollocks. He's *then* asked if that's his reason, why he doesn't go in and sort out Israel.

Idiot. We elected this man as PM? Says a lot for the state of England..

Re: Oh, it gets worse...

[talestra.livejournal.com]

Thanks to the one who compared Israel and Iraq, because we ARE SO MUCH ALIKE. On, we do employ torture to extract information, only we are smart enough not to take pictures of it, we just talk about it.
Love, from Israel.

[visp.livejournal.com]

Well, the torture chambers were there, and nobody was using them, Bush just figured he'd be economical for once.

Bastard. I just want to take all these stories, print them out and use them to beat to death all those idiots who still believe this war was a good idea.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

You might need more ammo for that, given how much support the war had.

Norway can probably contribute with a load of trout. Any other countries who'd like to chip in?

[megpie71.livejournal.com]

All I can think to do is pray.

Pray this sinks in to a lot of people.
Pray the people who are so outraged about this now in the US all vote.
Pray the Bush administration doesn't decide to play another dirty tricks campaign like they did in Florida.

Pray fervently for the Australian voting public to realise we are going to be tarred with the same brush if we continue blindly following Bush's lead in this one.

Gods above, below, betwixt, between, before, behind and beyond, this is unbelievable. There are times when I weep for homo sapiens. Can we not *learn* from history?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Looking at European history... We sometimes learn, but only when the lessons are very, very painful.

I don't think Iraq's been quite painful enough yet to be a long-lasting learning experience, quite frankly.

[greyladybast.livejournal.com]

No. We CAN'T learn from history. At least, we can't without some very real risks. Scary risks.

And all this shit is why I am beginning to feel suspiciously like Random Schmuck #32 on the Death Star, or in the Haradrim army, or whatever Evil Regime you care to name.

I fretted about this in my own LJ, but the questions still remain.

What do we do? How far are we willing to let this go, not just on an American level, but worldwide? What are we going to do to try to stop it? And if we CAN'T stop it, are we going to try to protest it? Do we harness the power of the Internet, or do we pull the covers up over our ears and hope it will go away? And what happens to our loved ones if we fight? What happens to them if we don't?

I have no easy answers for these questions. Every time I think to myself "Of course I must fight!!!", I look at my little Boychilde, or the adolescents on the bus who, for some unfathomable reason, look to me for guidance and fairness and a good example, and think "How can I risk myself and let them down?"

This is why I don't fight harder. Does that make me a collaborator with Evil? I fear that it does, but I don't know how to stop it.

So, what do we do? What DO we do? "What would you say, if your mother asked you?" to quote Dr. Seuss.

I have no answers. Does anyone else?

Bast, worried and frightened

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I don't think anyone has *the* answers because what is true for me might not be true for you. But it's always a good sign if you are at least asking the questions. I worry about some of the same things sometimes - how can I truly know that what changes I want are the right ones? And the answer is of course that I don't. I cannot know for sure.

But I think doubt is good, in this case. It leaves you open to listen to others. This is what scares me about Bush and Rumsfeld. I sense no doubt in them, I hear no doubt in them, I see no doubt in them. I might be wrong, of course.

But you're asking questions and showing doubt, which means you're open to listen. That is a good thing. We can only do what we think is best. We can never know. Deluding ourselves to think we do know that our course is right is to me where the greatest potential to go wrong lies.

*shrugs* Not much of a comfort, I fear.

[(Anonymous)]

This scares me too. I'm not as world-weary as all of y'all, but I came home and cried today after reading this board. I was unaware of the fact that American soldiers were abusing Iraqi prisoners. I was also unaware that there were so many people ready to hate a lot of people for the actions of a few. Yes, I'll agree that Bush made a mistake going into Iraq. When I came home and cried, I cried because I was sad that people were willing to torture and abuse the very people they were there to protect. I cried because I was angry that this war that isn't even a real war has opened up such a can of worms, and that it has opened a door for horrible things like this to happen and not be investigated or brought to light. But I also cried because I was feeling that because y'all hate Bush, or y'all hate war crimes committed by American soldiers, you all would be willing to judge an entire group of people for something they were unaware was going on. And that saddens me more than anything.

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

It might not be my place to be the first to respond to this, but I'm just having a hard time understanding exactly what you mean.

But I also cried because I was feeling that because y'all hate Bush, or y'all hate war crimes committed by American soldiers, you all would be willing to judge an entire group of people for something they were unaware was going on.

Which group of people that was unaware of what was going on exactly were we all judging? Sorry if that's a stupid question, but there's something about the way you've structured what you're saying that makes it hard to understand exactly what you mean. All I can hear is something that sounds like it's supposed to be some sort of accusation.

Do you mean we're judging all Americans, or all American soldiers, regardless of whether or not they knew what was going on, based on the actions of these few soldiers and because we already hate Bush? If so, could you point out a few lines to back up this claim? Because it isn't what I gathered at all from what people were saying, and now I'm a bit worried that I might have said something that could be confused to mean something I didn't want it to. ^_^;

I'm ashamed of being American

[krazykat.livejournal.com]

At this point in time. I never agreed with this war, and now it's like I woke up to discover I was a citizen of an evil empire. I feel so disgusted and sick about this. Just a few days ago I was worried that this is going to be another Vietnam, and now I'm reminded of the Germans in WWII. I wonder if the Germans felt like I'm feeling right now.

I'm very patriotic, I hope that we can recover a good position with the rest of the world by quiety withdrawing and transferring power peacefully to the Iraqis. I wonder where our ideal of self-determination went. Our great Presidents of the past are turning over in their graves right now. Hopefully a change will come in November.

Re: I'm ashamed of being American

[misscam.livejournal.com]

The problem is that is the US withdraw now, it'll probably be a civil war. There's too much tension and instability now. Not to mention tehre's the whole Kurdish issue that hasn't even been adressed yet. No, the US cannot pull out now. I didn't agree with the war, but now that you are there, you cannot pull out anytime soon without major bloodshed and chaos as a result. Bit of a bitch, eh? The US right now is to a certain degree damned whatever it does. Iraqis want the US out, but if the US does pull out now, it'll look weak and Iraq will be a mess. Keep on being there and the Iraqis will grow increasingly angry, as will perhaps the rest of the world.

Not much of a choice. There might be a third option, of course, but I cannot quite see the shape of it.

[talestra.livejournal.com]

I find it interesting, that there is nowhere mentioned what kind of the information they were trying to extract from these prisoners. These elusive WMD? Or location of new attack on american soldiers (because the women tortured would really know about it)?
But still, I hate to be a devil advocate here, because nevertheless my lack of care for Iraqis, I found these pictures appalling, I can't help thinking HOW STUPID THESE SOLDIERS HAVE BEEN TO TAKE PICTURES? I know, that americans sometimes are capable of great stupidity,and I certainly believe that they are capable of torturing and raping, but taking visual proof of your crime really crosses the line. So, I guess I'm just slightly inclined to believe that in some of the cases they were following orders from military intelligence, but that still does make them guilty in following illegal orders. Just another example of freedom and justice brought to Iraq by US. I read in some Rumsfeld's interview that he was surprised by level of hostility they encountered in Iraq. I still can't decide, whether he pretended or he really that stupid to expect anything else.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Well, if human history teaches us anything, it's that you can *always* bank on stupidity.

I was blown away by the stupidity of using *Saddam's own infamous torture prison* for this myself. Good grief.

Disney blocks film.

[git-the-goddess.livejournal.com]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/06/1083635239939.html

"The Walt Disney Company is blocking its Miramax Films division from distributing Michael Moore's documentary Fahrenheit 9/11, which criticises President George W Bush's handling of September 11 and connects the Bush family with that of Osama bin Laden.

Moore attributes Disney's decision to concerns that the documentary will endanger tax breaks the company receives from Florida, where Bush's brother Jeb is governor. "

I think Miramax only has the US distribution rights, so I think this only prevents people in the USA from seeing the film. Which, I guess, is the idea. (Hint: ELECTIONS). So, Americans. Get your hands on this film and get it shown in america! (If it's only blocking USA releases, get someone to visit Canada/Mexico and send you a copy)

Re: Disney blocks film.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it was reported over here. Apparently Disney felt the film would be 'splitting'.

Because Disney is all about the family, dontcha know.

Makes me sick.

[(Anonymous)]

Ugh, disgusting, I can't believe they actually did that! I think it's sick that they do this to already abused Iraqis! I don't really like to keep up with war news, it just makes me feel bad to be a human because of all we do and all we've done! I am so tired of this war but I can't do anything about it apart from throwing myself in front of a firing squad, we can't even co-exist with each other for cripes sake. I wonder if there are any groups about this, hmmmm.

Re: Makes me sick.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Nothing new under the sun, as we say. Humans have been unable to co-exist for millenia. Might be a genetic thing. Apparently, chimpanzees have been found to commit genocide. One group of chimpanzees will kill every member (even the babies) of another group.

We just do it with flashier weapons.

Coming very late to the party . . .

[maureenlycaon.livejournal.com]

Maybe I'm selfish, but what I feel now is not so much rage as it is fear.

Amnesty International had it right decades ago: there is no "just one time" for torture, and the ultimate function of government-sponsored torture is not to get information, but to terrorize people.

From here, it will go on to torturing immigrants who are suspected of being terrorists, and from there to torturing immigrants who are suspected of knowing terrorists, and from there to American citizens who are suspected of knowing immigrants who know immigrants who might be terrorists. No government in history has ever escaped this downward spiral, once it accepts the "necessity" for torture.

Needless to say, at this point I'm frightened for myself. I just hope I can get out before it's too late.

Re: Coming very late to the party . . .

[netdancer.livejournal.com]

Canada. I need three more years of job experience before I can emigrate...I hope I make it.

[talestra.livejournal.com]

No, I think, the comparison was exactly between liberating Iraq from from tyranny of Saddam and liberating Palestinians from Israeli occupation.

Oh, I wasn't joking about extraction of information with torture.