What is this thing called human cruelty really?

[misscam]

So now some Iraqis seem to be using the abuse revalations as an excuse to do bad onto Americans. There is never such an excuse. Never. Not for Americans, not for Iraqis, not for Norwegians, not for Australians, not for Tibetians. Never. I said it in the discussions about Abu Ghraib and I'm saying it again - now matter what bad is done to you it does not give you the right to do bad back. That creates Rwanadas and Yugoslavia as its uttermost consequence.

*shakes head* Apparently, one name mentioned has being involved in the killing of Nick Berg is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who used to be in Ansar Al Islam. And the former leader of Ansar Al Islam is Mullah Krekar, who is right here in Norway. Aren't we lucky?

Link, if you have missed the story.

And I've also heard that CBS is apparently going to avideo from Abu Ghraib with soldiers talking about the prisoners and abuse.

Why do people do this to each other? I asked myself the same thing when fifteen year old Benjamin Hansen was killed here in Norway by neo-Nazis just because his skin was dark. Why the hell do we do this? And I say we because I don't believe these are people born evil or some other such simple answer. No, I don't believe that. I've never believed in black and white and good and evil only. European history is filled with rather ordinary humans doing terrible, terrible things. And Rwanda had ordinary people one day pick up machetes and hack at their neighbours. Why?

And then I look to myself and I wonder. I too have urges to do bad unto those I feel have done bad to bad. I too sometimes wish pain upon people who have pained me. I can be petty, I can be vengeful, I can be unfair. And I don't think I'm that bad a person. But I know I have it within me and sometimes it comes out, like a retractable claw. Does that make sense?

So what is it within me and so many others that can cause such actrocities? What *is* human cruelty? Herd mentality? Survival instinct? Or is it of our own creation?

How I wish I could understand, truly understand, as much as I know the answer would horrify me. Or perhaps I don't really want to understand, for that very reason.

No answers, then. Just the questions. And little me and the big, big world.

Comments

[norwegianne.livejournal.com]

Herd mentality is definitely something to take into account. Because even if one person can be cruel, it takes a whole 'nother level when you get a group of people. Our principal warned us against the herd mentaility when we began the season of celebrating as Russ. He had seen so many crazy things being done, things that people normally wouldn't do (ie. arrange a mock-hanging where it nearly went wrong, throw somebody out in the water in the middle of town, and watch them land only a meter away from getting a metal rod through their upper torso...) so he told us that if there was one thing we shouldn't do: it was follow the crowd. Very wise words, that I'll carry with me.

Things to remember are also that there are limits to how long someone can be bullied before they hit back. Stavanger Aftenblad had a series on the trials and death-penalties for the three Stavanger-men who played on the German's team with torture of Norwegian prisoners, etc... earlier this year, and (I can't remember it quite clearly, right now.) but I believe that at least two of them had felt unjustly treated earlier, and when they had the chance to give payback - they did. While most manage to rise above unfair treatment there are those that don't. Now, that is closer to 60 years ago, but as we can see... unfortunately, the mistreatment of prisoners isn't something that have been left in the past as the archaic custom it really is.

There are times the level of cruelty humanity can rise to amazes me.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

There's probably as many different explanations to why humans do such things as there are different humans. Herd mentality and bullying are probably among the reasons. It's certainly true that human IQ seem to plummet like a stone in certain groups. Downright scary.

And right now some bloody russ are driving by and playing very loud, very bad music. Bah.

[dragonlet.livejournal.com]

Well, for an answer to your question, "what is human cruelty", I think it's whenever Humans give in to Human Nature. Whenever humans act like HUMANS, we call it "human cruelty", in the same way when women act like people, they are accused of trying to act like men.

Though I think the actual phrase "human cruelty" means humans being cruel to eachother.

And I agree with you; they had no right to kill him. If you know that the reason they did it was because of the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, then you'll see they did have justification. I'm not saying that what they did was right, but I'm not saying that what we did was right either. None of this should have happened, and a lot of it is our fault. I do not deny that Americans are really stupid, but part of it human nature.

Kinda makes you want to move to another universe, doesn't it?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I don't think Americans are more stupid than say Europeans. But I do think America has certain education problems. Of course, that can be said about a lot of countries, but when the US is THE Superpower - well, I find it worrying.

In another Universe there'll probably be 'alien cruelty' as bad as what we can do.

[dragonlet.livejournal.com]

I don't mean stupid as in no education--we have this annoying superiority complex, if I'm saying it right/thinking of the right things. People are just stupid, not stupid as in not knowing things but...stupid.

[belegcuthalion.livejournal.com]

"Man is Man's Wolf" someone said. And that's true. If men are treated cruelly for too long, they get cruel themselves (which is probably true in Iraq), a fact, that explains in no way every violation of the human rights commited in the last few hundred years.

The bombs thrown on Dresden in WW 2 couldn't be excused by the bombs thrown on Coventry and London. No crime can ever be the excuse for another crime. And I'm sorry for every good willed american in Iraq who now has to suffer the consequences of the deeds of a blind and ignorant government.

We have a well known, very old and famous journalist over here in Germany, a man called Peter Scholl-Latour. When this war began, he told everybody who wanted to listen what would happen. And he was right in every point. I don't think that will make him sleep better these nights.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I usually use Dresden as an example that there is no such thing as having the moral high ground in war. I mean, WW2 has such a clear villain and such a clear good guy. Yet, when you look closer at it, you see the good guys doing bad things as well. *shakes head* Even my own people, as much as that saddens me.

There has been a lot of Norwegians and British who warned against the war and what might come who've been pretty bloody right about what was to come. So whatever else the Bush administration says, it cannot say it wasn't warned.

[elvea-aure.livejournal.com]

I read about that this morning. I'm just as disgusted by it all. It's just getting really out of hand now... where's a Ghandi or a Martin Luther King when you need one?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Dead and dead.

Funny how often the good people of this world get killed...

[elvea-aure.livejournal.com]

Well, technically speaking it's not, of course, and that's the whole problem. Instead of shooting some fucktard like Bush, they kill off the people who could make this world a better place.

A Human Essay

[musemistress.livejournal.com]

I am not in one of those moods which would allow one to sprout a fountain of wisdom unto this age old question...what is humanity? But I will try.

Humanity's cruelty is a sub-subject which stems from what humans believe to be their right and place in this world. Rulars and dominators over all other things.

To understand why we can be cruel when things happen to us and we could have once called ourselves pasifists is confusing. Each and every person is different. These different people live in towns and counties (including states) which are most commonly seperated from their neighbours. Then these counties are situated within a culture that could include the whole country or only a part of it which would then mean the difference expand to not only point of origin, but also point of view. Confusing as it may seem, this only articulates the fact that not one idea or explanation can pinpoint what drives a single person or group of people to such extremes as what is labelled as 'Human Cruelty'. It's almost always upbringing...but even an angel of a child with wonderful parents can be driven to horrible measures (hint hint, Kaiser Wilhelm II, English Queen Victoria's favourite little grandson who turned around and led Germany against England in the First World War).

It's a domino effect of revenge exerting revenge on revenge. An endless cycle. If we lived longer then maybe the human race would understand and not repeat their mistakes...but unfortunately this is not so and, sad as it may seem, we just have to live with it.

A person's soul, or personality if 'soul' is not the correct word, is generally unchangable. If their upbringing is the same throughout their life then what they think and feel when push comes to shove (aka, having your home blown to hell and back) will be one of two certain extremes; Revenge and blood payment of the worst sort, or staying quiet and hidden away to ensure not only their own safty, but that of their remaining family and friends.
But if the unbringing is inconsistant and swapping back and forth...then we have a whole other thesis to compose based on the Chaos Butterfly.

I personally have wonderful parents and a pretty, if on the poor side, good upbringing. You would think an angle child like me...yes I was a sweet child...would turn out to be something good and fine, like a teacher and or wonderful mother with a Science degree on the side. But instead I barely graduated by the skin of my teeth, lost my marbles in the hormonal turmoil of the late teens (16-18) and became rather dark and sinister hidden behind the veil of my highly religious and strict church. I'm still unable to pass a puppy without patting it or not smile at a child, but I still sometimes flip and decide someone needs a good pummeling for measure. Some may think it stems from the fact I was the school joke and the bullied one for too many years until I snapped, but the thing is is that I habour no revenge for those people and have no desire to make their kids' lives a living hell just because of what their parents did. Confusing but true...I simply moved on and left the county to find the life I deserve.

Most people can't simply move on and this is why we have these problems. Habouring revenge caused nearly every human-caused catastrophy in known history...from the Catholics killing off Protestants and visa-versa simply because they don't agree since the early 1500's, to Pearl Habour, Hiroshima and the Twin Towers today...no need for explanation there.

And yet after all this...we still don't have an answer. To be honest...humanity is the supreme being on the planet not because of our big brains, the ability to program our lives or the excelled inventive use of opposable thumbs...but because we have the power of choice and a vision of what is to come. And really, that's all the answer one can recieve in such a complex world.

And to make one think I'll finished with this well known motto of the Order of the Garter 'Honi soit qui mal y pense' "Shame on him who thinks evil of it". I think that's one motto that would solve everything if everyone went by it...after all, it's a motto on a garter which is basically women's underwear...shame on you if you think it evil.


~Vana E~

Re: A Human Essay

[musemistress.livejournal.com]

I think I have just answered my own question. I got my father to read this idea of mine without telling him I wrote it...he calls it 'brainwashing' and 'a single idea'.

As I said...every single person is different and though it hurts to have your own father say that about what you write; that it is immature and one-sided, it only reinforces the fact we are all human in each different way. Dad believes the American's deserve it all and tries to see American sentiments in everything "anti"German or Iraq. He would have thought differently about the Keiser if he knew I wrote it as he knows I am totally neutral and his mother was German and only one man really got it wrong. But as you can see, it was a detatched pov...he assumes too much as so many people do and this is where all the misunderstanding comes from.

Just thought I'd share. It's odd to get true negativity from a parent...though not new in a critical sense. This one was very anti-mywriting.

~Vana E~

Re: A Human Essay

[misscam.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting motto.

I sometimes wonder if humans have a grudge against life in general and that's why we try to take so much out on each other. I mean, some people have no reason to want revenge on anyone, yet seemed filled with a deep desire to bring pain to everyone else anyway.

I wonder, I do.

I don't really think there is one answer that fits all humans in regard to this, but there probably is an answer that fits each of us. You might have found yours. I don't know if I've found mine.

[megpie71.livejournal.com]

At the heart of it, I think the core of human cruelty is treating people as things. When you dehumanise others - whether this be by small things like referring to them in bulk (as I'm doing now) or by larger means such as stereotyping or propaganda, you remove their humanity. It's easier to be cruel to things which aren't "Real Human Beings". Think of the way we treat food animals, for example.

When we personalise the people on the other side, when we allow them the chance to think, feel, believe; when we allow them to be as human as we are, it is harder to be cruel. Harder, but not impossible. In the centre of us there is still the monkey that wants to be leader. We have brains which are effectively a monkey sitting in front of a shrew sitting on a reptile. The older parts of our brains can overrule the newer parts, especially when we are tired, under stress, or simply placed in situations we do not understand.

Mix in with this a cultural extelligence which mixes in a strong measure of blame-avoidance (I didn't, it wasn't, I couldn't help myself, they ordered me to) with a large dollop of hierachical thinking, and you have circumstances where stressed people can do horrific things, because they've just stopped thinking.

This doesn't make what they did any the less wrong. Understandable, yes. Explainable, yes. Excusable - never. We *all* have brains like this. We *all* have to make our personal choices about right and wrong. We *all* have to live with the consequences of those choices. I don't know whether I could have made the right choice in the situation, and I pray I never have to find out.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

You're probably right in a lot of that. Especially considering that chimpanzees apparently have been known to commit genocide. *shakes*

And perhaps the 'dehumanisation' that the American government has attempted of the Iraqis in trying to win the propaganda war have in some ways contributed to the abuse in Abu Ghraib. I'm certainly inclined to think so, though I could be wrong. But I do know that the dehumanisation the Germans did to the Jews did make it easier for ordinary Germans just to close their eyes and ignore the rumours of Treblinka and similar camps.

[anckyria.livejournal.com]

Yes - just as dehumanising Africans because of their skin colour made the Western world accept slave trade for centuries. And it all goes further and further back, with countless examples of similar persecution. I'm not sure which author it was who had a character summarise it, but I quote anyway: "Since we all know people on the other side of the border aren't really human, we can do whatever we like to them." It's so very sad and very, very frustrating that humankind hasn't managed to evolve past such thinking.
- Iona