Badfic, Bad Sleep, Bad Children

[misscam]

It's kinda depressing to read a whole fanfic of 20000+ words with 'Gil Grissolm' and 'Warwich Brown'. (We're not just talking one typo here - whole fic's full of them) Who the heck doesn't check spelling of the main characters they write about? The OOCness, horrid grammar and your/you're mistakes kinda pale in comparison.

Spent yesterday with the parents, who are having a wine cellar made - real fancy one, too. Sadly, the combination of me being up late thus wanting to sleep in a bit and workers coming early to carve out a window in a brick wall is not a match made in heaven. Drrrr. Long pause, Cam trying to get asleep aagin. Drrr. Drrr. Drr. Cam decided to get up. Silence. Cam dares to try to sleep again. Drrr. Drrr. Not the best sleep I've had, no.

This wank and these announced changes at Skyehawke have had me hmmhmming. Apparently, it's Australian law that's at issue here.

Australian law, under which skyehawke operates, defines child pornography as
"a film, photograph, publication or computer game that describes or depicts a person who is, or who looks like, a minor under 16 engaging in sexual activity or depicted in an indecent manner or context" (Crimes Act, 67A) This is further clarified in Victorian state law as "under this law, 'publications' also include stories, poems, essays, drawings and cartoons".

It tied in interestingly with a discussion I had with maureenlycaon the other day about fanfic portraying very young characters having sex and pedophilia. Now me - I feel iffy about it. I'm not saying people who enjoy it are pedophiles, but reading about very young people getting it on always makes me feel like I took a left turn into a pedophile's mind. I just don't care for it. It squicks me. (We're not talking teenagers here either - we're talking below that.) But should it be illegal, as it seems to be under Australian law?

I admit to feeling slightly mixed over that. It is as such not hurting anyone living, like pedophilic real porn is. But on the other hand, it does portray what is still children as being sexual beings, which I've heard pedophiles yak on about enough times to make me sick. Children are not sexual beings. They have hormones, yes, they're devolping sexual feelings to a certain degree. But their minds and their bodies aren't yet prepared for just what sex means. That's what teenagedom is all about - that journey to adulthood and yes, the sexual urges of adults. But you need that journey to get there. And seeing children portrayed as sexual beings before that journey, that icks me. I know it's fiction. But fiction puts ideas in our mind, colours our perceptions. But is this cencorship? Is it taking it too far? Is this after all harmless fantasies? Where do you draw the line? I don't know. I wish I had a clear answer, but all I can feel is muddy waters in my mind.

(My favourite line of maureenlycaon's during that convo - she on me ever getting really wanky: "You? Fuck that. You're depressingly free from wank. You're positively wank-repellent."

Aaaw. I feel all complimented. Though if I keep raising controversial issues in my LJ, that may change soon enough.)

A taste of Norway today:
New Royal heir on the way - ironically, the Danish Crown Prince and Princess reported they're also having a baby on the very same day. Must be something in the Royal air.
Spring pictures from Norway!

Comments

[adoraheatherly.livejournal.com]

I think that's about the only thing I can't tolerate, even in fiction. Yuck!

*waves*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*waves back*

Yeah, it seems to hit the yuck-instict in quite a lot of people. Me included.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

Way to jump into the sticky issue. :D

Chan is a squick for me, but I have to qualify it...there's a BIG difference between teenagers and children. Puberty is a chasm. Reading about post-pubescents having sex, even if they're legally underage (somewhere in the world), does not bother me in the way actual child sex does.

Children do indeed have "sexual" feelings, sometimes very intense ones (I remember it vividly from my own childhood), but child sexuality is very much their own and it is very different from post-pubescent sexuality, and it is absolutely NOT something anyone on the other side of that dividing line has any business poking their nose, eyes, or any other body parts into. If an older writer managed to write about that particular Secret Garden, the inner life of a child (with all its aspects, sexual- and not-, as if children draw a distinction) accurately I'd be very very impressed: I think once our sexuality has crossed that line, it's very hard to return to what it was before, even in imagination. For me, I think I'm feeling now that some Mysteries ought to remain that way, and I'm not actually personally interested in children enough. It's not my place to think about children in a sexual way anymore, since I'm no longer one, and fortunately I find the thought pretty disgusting and am not tempted in the least.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Ayep :P

Yeah, I totally agree on that - teenagers having sex is not a squick for me in itself, ever. hell, I had sex as a teenager myself. Naughty me.

I can remember being curious about many sexual things as a kid, but you're right - once you cross that bridge into adulthood, you lose the innocence that was. It's an innocent sort of sexuality too and seeing it written about as adult sexuality is what really squicks me, I think. Because that is what pedophiles seem to use as a way to justify what they're doing - that children and adults can have sexual relationships because their sexuality is on an equal footing.

[briasoleil.livejournal.com]

I started to read that fic. The OOC-ness of it drove me nuts, so I didn't get very far. However, I've been reading a Nick/Sara fic that is positively the worst thing I may have ever read, with the exception of rape-fic. Oy with the OOC-ness. But it's like a train wreck and I. Just. Can't. Stop. Reading. The mind boggles.

As for the pedophilia thing - I don't get people (particularly adults) who want to write about young children having sex. Like it's a good thing and it's to be celebrated and fêted and lauded and so on. It squicks me out completely. But I don't necessarily think that every film, tv show or novel that depicts a sexual act with someone under 16 is pedophilia.

How many people saw the film, Mermaids, with Cher, Wynona Ryder and Christina Ricci? I doubt any of them would consider it pedophilia. And yet, the character that Wynona Ryder played was 13 or 14 years old. They may have aged her a little from the YA novel that the film is based on, but I don't think a lot. She wasn't an "acceptable" age, y'know.

And what of Isabel Allende's beautiful House of the Spirits? Does the relationship between the brother and sister (not blood relations) constitute pedophilia? Or Hanan Al-Shaykh's Women of Sand and Myrrh, where a young girl is married off to a young boy and the sexual act is briefly described from her point of view?

And films that depict sexual violence toward children - are they pedophilia, as well? The Boys of St. Vincent and Bastard Out of Carolina both deal with this taboo subject in very graphical ways. And yet, they're stunning films in their own right. Compelling and well-done.

Or, what of Atom Egoyan's Exotica, where a man routinely attends an exclusive strip club to see a young woman (but who's of legal age) dance/strip while dressed in the stereotypical Catholic school girl's outfit? Or Malle's Pretty Baby?

Do I feel repulsed by Picasso's Les Demoiselles d'Avignon? Not at all.

There is a line between the artistic, with its comments on society, humanity, sexuality, etc. and true degradation and depravity. Every time I see a picture of JonBenet Ramsey, I flinch, because, in no way, is it acceptable to dress up a 4-year-old in that manner. It's not art. It's not a commentary on the sexualisation of children. It's not beautiful. It has no value whatsoever.

And yet, some people who would decry the films or novels above would have no issue with dolling up their young daughters for beauty pageants. So, which is more acceptable? Who decides? And what measure do we use against which we decide what is permitted and what isn't? Because obviously, somethings are not acceptable.

This is a longer ramble than I meant to engage in. *le sigh*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

You have a link to that fic? *bats eyelashes* I like to torture myself.

*nods* You raise some very good points. Pedophilia is about sexual gratification, getting off. But there are many other reasons film, TV, books etc may touch upon young people and their sexuality and some of them are educational, enlightening and neccessary, just like other commentaries on society.

But drawing the line - that's always the problem, innit? The world is shades of grey, the law is black and white. So where do we draw that line in the sand between black and white? Or should we look at the laws and how they are implemented?

And for the record - I consider teenagedom from about 13-19 - varying on the person. I started devolping early, others do later. It varies with each person, just to make it even more complicated.

*echoes le sigh*

[briasoleil.livejournal.com]

I'd say "enjoy" but I don't think it's really possible. I mean, the fic is Just. That. Bad. Happy torture?

And agreed. So many shades of grey and everyone wants to define it in, as you said, black and white terms. And by and large, that's not always really possible. And as much as there are things that are clear-cut cases of pedophilia, there are just as many things that are true artistic endeavours. The pedophile will look at his/her photos, films, videos, books, whatever and claim that they're art. And the masses will decry the liberalisation of the media.

But do we have to go back to "three feet on the ground," euphamisms, metaphors and symbolism, such as water shooting out of a hose in order to depict sex?

And I concur with your view on teenagedom. As well, I developed earlier. And my daughter developed even earlier than me. Over her spring holiday, some guy tried to pick her up. Two years ago, she would cover her eyes at any sign of making out on screen.

[briasoleil.livejournal.com]

Oops. The fic is here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2301349/1/

*handpalm*

[briasoleil.livejournal.com]

Or, y'know, *headpalm*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

“Hey, if it is negative,” Nick said in a reassuring tone. “We can always try again until we get a positive result. We had just started trying the week after that party for Grissom and Catherine’s engagement.”

Oh, I see I'm in for a long, spiked ride. How fun.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry. You seem to have given me the wrong link. This seems to be to an original story with cardboards named Sara, Nick, Grissom, Catherine, Warrick and a tadpole named Abigail Melanie.

[briasoleil.livejournal.com]

I recommend alcohol. Or other drugs. It may help. Or, not reading it.

But isn't it so horrible that you almost have to read it, if only to point and mock? Which is horrible to say, but not untrue.

Perhaps there is another show with characters named Gissom, Sara, Nick, Catherine, Warrick, Brass and Greg?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I'm a member of GAFF. I read and mock all the time. It's like therapy.

Perhaps there is. CSI: Badficville, maybe?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I come from a country that is in many ways more 'open' about sex and sexuality than for instance the US. But being open is not the same as sexualising everything. I know there are many who think that, who will blame pedophilia on open societies and we must teach kids nothing at all, it could hurt their fragile minds... and on and on. Sex doesn't disappear when it isn't talked about or if art went back to all euphenisms and veiled language. I do not think that is the way to go at all.

And pedophiles, I think, can get off art (films, books, photos, painting...) that is innocent, that is nothing pedophilic, simply because they bring what they want to see. So drawing that line is a muddled work at best, impossible at worst.

On the other hand, can we afford not to say that some lines must never be crossed, that everything can be viewed in a different way and be okay? I believe in shades of grey and I don't much like black/white thinking, but there are shades of grey so dark they feel black.

It's a complicated world run by complicated humans, that's for sure.

[briasoleil.livejournal.com]

I understand that kind of openness, because, well, that's the way I am. And living in France certainly helped. And I agree. Sex doesn't stop happening if we don't discuss it. But art is no longer true if it can't address all of humanity. If we limit it, then we deny this part of us that is so integral to ourselves.

And yes, I totally agree that there are lines that must be drawn. And they must never be crossed.

Different people will react differently to different things, depending on their value systems, their education, their experiences, etc. I know I do. For all that I'm "innocent until proven guilty," I'm also uncomfortable with little children dancing tap or jazz routines to Michael Jackson's music. Which is absurd. And yet, I can't help feeling uncomfortable. And yet, I've never had a problem watching a Roman Polanski film. And that's hypocritical on my part.

So, word to the "complicated world run by complicated humans." I'm proof positive of that.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I still haven't made my mind up about Michael Jackson, except to think that there is something wrong in that man's mind. Is he guilty of child abuse? I don't know, and luckily, it's not up to me to judge.

I guess we all make exceptions to the rules we live by in our mind because it's the only way to have all what we want. I don't think it makes us evil or bad. Denying it, trying to force only your exceptions on other - that might.

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

Since you're throwing out films, I feel compelled to plug The Edges of the Lord as shamelessly as I can, because it is a Thing of Beauty. *runs away*

Nevertheless, some artistic things can cross over into places wot we should not go, vis, 120 Days of Sodom. Yes, I read it, yes, it was....good, for a given value of good, but internet veteran that I am, I was still mildly disturbed by it. (For about two hours. And then it passed. But that's not the point.) Not that I can judge it, of course, but there are just some things...

[briasoleil.livejournal.com]

The next time I rent something, I will make sure to check out The Edges of the Lord. And right now, I'm going to check it out on imdb.

Thanks for the suggestion!

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

Children and adults--definitely not. Children and children--it's still freaky and probably not quite right, but if they're just messin' around with no clue of what they're doing, well, it's a little difficult to fault them, innit? But concerning their sexuality, whilst I would of course agree that emotionally and mentally there's no way in hell they're prepared for it, there are actually some children who can bring themselves to orgasm by the age of, say, ten. Which means they get certain urges too. So there's...a bit of ambiguity, if you really want to get into it, about them being sexual beings. (Lolita, babeh. I still haven't read the book.)

Note: I don't advocate sex with children (fer cryin' out loud, I haven't hit my own majority yet, even if I'm just a little way away). In fact my typical response to hearing RL stories about it is to pick up the nearest sharp object and go for the goods. So don't defenestrate me just yet, hm?

I think, by the way, that part of the appeal of sex with children is the inevitable size difference. No matter how underhung you are when it comes to adults, children...are a good deal smaller. And presumably less stretchy where it counts. That's of course on the male side. On the female side, I have no idea why anyone would want to have sex with little boys, unless you've got some interesting maternity-sex issues going, which I s'pose is perfectly possible. People have all sorts of kinks.

And I mean, mindfucking little kids is always fun, yes? So there's that as well.

Concerning fiction--if there was a piece of fic that explored children's sexuality not purely for the purposes of porn, I wouldn't have any objections. If, on the hand, it was for gratification, then my answer's a flatout no. (I suppose I should make a distinction between porn and adultfic, and at the same time acknowledge that both of'em overlap lots. But for the fics that don't, well, they tend to be pretty cool anyway.) It's too easy for borders to be crossed. For every fantasy thrown out there on the net, there will be a nutjob that goes and does it. And yeah, it definitely fiddles with people's minds, so that things like that become...acceptable, after a while, to a certain extent. (Desensitization's a marvelous thing: I lurk on tws_support.) Harmless fantasies or no, it just hits too close to home.

And of course, on another level we really don't need to objectify children any more than they already are. Not too mention the whole size issue, which I druther not get into for the sake of the mental health of anyone else reading this thread. But you see where I'm headed with this.

(Sorry if I squicked anyone. Well. Not really. XD But seriously, it's an iffy topic, and 'pologies if I give anyone bad images.)

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

But concerning their sexuality, whilst I would of course agree that emotionally and mentally there's no way in hell they're prepared for it, there are actually some children who can bring themselves to orgasm by the age of, say, ten. Which means they get certain urges too.


Oh ho, MUCH younger than that. Trust me on this one. I remember. :) But the key phrase there is bringing themselves to orgasm. A child exploring his or her own body and what it can do - no harm, no foul, perfectly healthy and natural, should not be interfered with. With another child - well, there's more potential for harm there, children can be awfully cruel and careless to each other. But still not "sick" in itself at all, IMO. Again, part of being a child, part of learning.

It's when you get adults or teenagers into the mix that the line is crossed. And I don't get the attraction at all, for either gender, personally: I've always found life experience to be much sexier than "innocence" (perhaps the most overrated state of being ever) and been drawn to older people, so...

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

Heheh, I figured as much, from what people've told me, but I thought I'd just throw out an average. And I very much agree with what you said. It's not dirty when you're a kid and just poking around (bad pun intended, badumbumchhh).

Yes, but despoiling that innocence is so much fun. [/sarcasm] It's power, it's taking something away from the child that they can't ever get back. I sound horrendously morbid, don't I? But what d'you think?

(And I have older!person!syndrome too, oh my.)

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

That innocence thing squicks me royally. It's not just in relation to children: I'm squicked, repulsed, grossed out the same way by, say, men who only want to marry a virgin woman while thinking men should have experience. Knowledge is power, and I just don't get actually wanting a relationship that's unequal from the start. (Of course, I do get wanting a partner with MORE experience than oneself...'cause maybe they can teach you new things, and that's fun...:D)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Mmm, icon love.

The virgin woman - experienced man goes way back to the ages when women weren't equal in a marriage. It annoys me when I come across it in this day and age. Not to mention the idea that a woman who has had some experience is a slut, the man is just a stud.

We've come some ways... but we sure still have far to go.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

And yeah, it definitely fiddles with people's minds, so that things like that become...acceptable, after a while, to a certain extent.

This is my great big fear. On the other hand, we do value the right to be able to express ourselves mostly as we want and as I said in an earlier comment, even things innocent can become nasty in a pedophile's mind because of what the pedophile brings to it.

And yeah, children have a sexuality. But I think of that that as a sort of children's sexuality, an innocent one. And when adults start fiddling with it, that's when I start feeling icked.

I do wonder if what pedophiles also get off on is the total control, not just the... ugh, size thing. Because let's face it, as an adult, you are in many ways dominating the child. I don't mean this in a bad way - this is how children are raised. They need to be guided and led and gradually, learn on their own. And maybe pedophiles also get off on sexually dominating the child. I don't know. I've been scared to look into pedophile research too much, for that is one dark, dark world.

[me2you.livejournal.com]

I read that fic too, all the way through, because I had nothing better to do. That totally rhymed, and i'm feeling oh so very proud of myself. It's the drugs dammit. I'm sure 'Grissolm' would have something intelligent and insightful to say about that.

Hi, i'm Helen, and I don't make sense :P

[misscam.livejournal.com]

'Grissolm' would say; "The evidence usually lies in the details, but sometimes, they come in bright, shiny neon signs that scream 'BADFIC'. Misspelling my name is one such. No CSI for you for a month, young author."

Hello Helen. You from the YTDAW board, or something? I noticed you had friended me.

[me2you.livejournal.com]

Firm but fair, my friend, firm but fair.

Yep, Hels from YTDAW. I read some of your entries and, omg, you sound intelligent. Let's face it, that's rare on LJ ;) Hell, I just spelt my own name incorrectly, which I think just proves my point.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Aw, thanks! :) I think that's the compliment of the day. Really though, I think different people use LJ for different things and well, I'm 25, so I've had some years to mature my brain from its squee-ing days.

And my, you used to watch Sunset Beach - do did I, in fact.

[pajamas.livejournal.com]

It's kinda depressing to read a whole fanfic of 20000+ words with 'Gil Grissolm' and 'Warwich Brown'. (We're not just talking one typo here - whole fic's full of them) Who the heck doesn't check spelling of the main characters they write about? The OOCness, horrid grammar and your/you're mistakes kinda pale in comparison.

Oh, dear God in Heaven. I want that writer's head on a stick right now. Seriously. Grissolm and Warwich? Hell-fucking-no.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Hell-fucking-yes, I fear. And it got good reviews.

[pajamas.livejournal.com]

Oh, they always get good reviews because, y'know, they're so good. :|

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I swear, "hilyioeryakjghjdGD" would get good reviews at ff.net.

[pajamas.livejournal.com]

Gasp. You just wrote that? Sitting right there, just now? OMGWTFBBQ, THAT IZ LIEK SOOOOO GOOD!!!!1!eleven

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I want five more reviews like that before I post the rest.

[pajamas.livejournal.com]

PLZPLZPLZ CONTINUE. PLZZZZ!!!

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Hilyioggfj,gaDYUTWTRThkldfiurywijkbghjg.

Teh end.

(And thus we have in fact demonstrated The Circle of Badfic.)

[pajamas.livejournal.com]

That wuz liek the bestest thing I've liek ever read EVAR.

(And we did it so well. We should collaborate again sometime.)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Squee-squee-squeeity-squee!!!!1111!!

(Yes, and inflict more pain upon the word.)

[maureenlycaon.livejournal.com]

I admit to the same mixed feelings about cartoon-style child porn. I'm sure some American libertarians are convinced I'm an Evol Liberal Fascist because I'm uncomfortable with anything showing people younger than 16. And I sure as hell won't read it. (I've even worried about the fact that one of my characters starts at 18 and another gets flogged at 16, even though the flogging wasn't specifically sexual . . .)

Even so . . . does child porn encourage pedophilia somehow? Or does pedophilia cause child porn? I think it's a two-way relationship, but one should be a lot more more cautious about banning fantasy images than deeds.

That said, the Skyehawke archive administrators are just showing common sense in choosing to comply with Australian law. It's ludicrous and self-indulgent for shota or chan-writers to expect them to risk court costs and even prison time for their supposed "rights".

And oh, yes, teachers who write pr0n about their students . . . there are no words. (And I'm still never again going to Friend anyone who has "shota" listed among their interests.)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I do kinda worry about these new Australian laws, though. I'm not sure I'm all that hot on how they're phrased. But as long as it's law, Skyehawke is doing the only thing it can.

I want to know what the hell that teacher thing was about, that's for sure. That's just... NO.