FF.net does it again

[misscam]

April 27th, 2005 In addition, FanFiction.Net would like to address a growing problem. For whatever reason, some writers feel it's okay to copy-n-paste musical lyrics they have not
written into their fiction. If you did not write it, do not post it. This has always been our policy. Please remove these entries immediately to avoid account closure.

Øy, the hell?

You know, I've just about had it with ff.net... They yank OFUM2, a whole bunch of fics of my friends and now I can't quote lyrics in my chapters? Joy oh joy.

Comments

[roo2.livejournal.com]

Um. Not to try and start a flame-fest or anything. But technically speaking, it's a violation of international copyright law to include complete song lyrics without written/express permission of the copyright holder. A few years ago some friends and I wrote an online soap opera and included complete song lyrics to songs used in the "soundtrack". We received a C&D letter from a law firm representing one of the artists (I think it was ZZ Top) threatening us with legal action if we didn't remove the lyrics. I know two other people who have also received C&D letters for using complete song lyrics in fiction.

From reading about fair use, I believe you're legally allowed to use up to 10% of a song for it to be okay, but more than that is illegal. Legally speaking you're safe with a couple of lines but more than that could be a problem.

It's possible that Xing has had no choice but to implement these changes. Considering how many users at FF.net just paste an entire song with one or two lines of story, I wouldn't be surprised if the RIAA's lawyers and minions aren't threatening him with legal action if he doesn't make a genuine effort to clean things up. By hosting stories that violate the law, he's risking a lawsuit and hefty fine and maybe jail time himself.

So I don't think you can blame Xing for this one - complain to the RIAA.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I never use a whole song - I use a few lines here and there because I know that falls under fair use. I'm just... tired of ff.net going in with cannons to swat flies.

Fanfiction is a murky legal area anyway.

[roo2.livejournal.com]

I think Xing is in a hell of his own making. By allowing people to upload whatever they want with no policing, he's allowed the inmates to take over the asylum. I'm willing to bet that 30% or more of submissions are violations of the TOS, but the only control mechanism is the abuse report, which is itself abused by vengeful fankiddies. Part of the problem is that he's aimed his site primarily at an extremely immature demographic, and it shows. He'd improve the site 1000% if he'd find a way to screen submissions. Yes, it would decrease the volume considerably, but considering the amount of dreck there it'd be an improvement. If submissions could even be skimmed for basics like spelling, punctuation, grammar and format violations and bounced back if they fail that initial scan, it'd free up the abuse team to deal with actual content violations, and they'd have time to actually read and judge stories instead of just deleting them without checking them.

Of course, I also think there should be a way to reject stories like "Hermione is raped by Draco but they realize it was just his expression of twu wuv!!!11one!" because the writer is a twit, but I don't see any signs of a twit filter being implemented :-)

But in all seriousness, I do think he needs a cannon because, even with a cannon, most of the users just don't pay any attention. My personal opinion is he should take off and nuke it from orbit, just to be sure, and eliminate the problem at its root. He needs to figure out a way to make his target demographic older and more mature, and end the unscreened submission policy.

[ladyiapetus]

I think Xing is in a hell of his own making. By allowing people to upload whatever they want with no policing, he's allowed the inmates to take over the asylum.

Ooh, can I metaquotes you on that?

[roo2.livejournal.com]

I'm flattered...I think :-) But feel free to go for it, and thanks for asking.

Horribly mixed metaphors

[the-s-guy.livejournal.com]

It's also a good point. If Xing has decided "Here, and no further!", the easiest (not necessarily best) way to put the mockers on the tsunamic onslaught of text is to use someone _else's_ big guns on it first. Maximum damage spread, minimum personal backlash because Xing can just point to copyright laws or some such.

My guess is that there will be a lot of slash-and-burn (if you'll excuse the term) with the dial turned up to eleven. If such radical surgery doesn't kill FF outright, there may be some relaxing of these rather crude rules at a future date.

Delicacy probably requires more resources than Xing has to hand at the moment. As a result, there is only Zuul.

Back up your fic, Dorothy, 'cos Kansas is going bye-bye.

("Actually, Minister..."
"Yes, Bernard?"
"...I don't know where to start.")

Re: Horribly mixed metaphors

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Now that'll be a fun ride.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I was on ff.net pretty early and those were the better days, let me tell you.

The site is now so big it must be a nightmare to police, but the current abuse report function seems to create more trouble than it solves.

Young teenagers are not who you want to have running a show like that.

[undeadgoat.livejournal.com]

Well, if you say the lyrics don't belong to you and aren't making material gain, I'm not sure it counts -- it's like suing someone for putting the lyrics of their favorite song on their binder, or if one-time radio broadcast had to pay lyrics, or something. As in, maybe they threatened legal action because you were visible, but it may not have stood up in applicable courts of law but they knew you probably wouldn't bother to defend it.

[roo2.livejournal.com]

Actually, according to copyright law, it doesn't matter if you credit the creator or not. Reproducing the lyrics in their entirety without written permission from the copyright holder (unless the lyrics are in the public domain) is as illegal as reproducing and distributing an entire movie or the song itself. Considering that the RIAA has sued thousands of people for filesharing and also shut down countless lyrics servers for violating copyright law, I don't think they'd hesitate to go after someplace like ff.net or the site that hosted our fiction. Back in 1999 Swiss police shut down a lyrics server and filed criminal charges against the webmaster because they violated US copyright laws. Countless other lyrics servers have been shut down over the years, despite the use of disclaimers and the lack of profit. There have been convictions since it's a blatant violation of the law and fairly open and shut, but I'm not sure if anyone has done jail time thus far. Mostly they just go for big fines.

There's a good website on copyright law at Stanford University's website.

And can you tell I worked in the copyright clearance office at my university for a while? You'd be amazed at how few rights you have with regard to copyright, even for educational use. And the laws have gotten even more restrictive since then.

[fileg.livejournal.com]

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<i<or if one-time radio broadcast had to pay lyrics</i>

they do have to pay. And BMI is incerdible strict and scary.

At the music venue I work at, we have to pay every time someone sings a song written by someone else, even if it's just one cover mixed in to a two hour show.

[hippydeath.livejournal.com]

Dude, they need to lay off the crazy pills.
While quoting whole songs in one lump does my head in, that new ruling is just taking it to an extreme.

[hippydeath.livejournal.com]

Because I feel the need to make sense.

Full songs, that's fine since legal issues and such, but if they really think that they can police this completely, they're really on the crazy pills.
Makes me glad I avoid the place like the plague.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I hang at ff.net because it's so convinient, but... it's getting less so, that's for sure.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

It *is* convenient - writing in so many fandoms as I do, where else could I put up all my stuff. Freedom of Speech just doesn't like my IP for some reason (although it allows my American friends to upload my stuff for me, to my account), and other than that, what else is there?

But the increasing madness with the new and less and less clear rules can get to you, that's right. Now I can't know when all my stuff will get yanked... :((

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I keep thinking I'll wake up one day and it'll just all be pulled. It's just getting insane.

[silvery-lass.livejournal.com]

They are banning song fics, right?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

And any story with lyrics in them, by the sounds of it.

[sliven.livejournal.com]

Meh. There goes most of my stuff then... A thought: does it count if you've altered the lyrics?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I have no idea... With ff.net, who knows?

[hadria.livejournal.com]

Wow, this just may be the dumbest thing FF.net has done to date. And considering how many dumb things they've done, that's saying a lot.

And song lyrics may belong to the people who wrote them, but fanfiction is based on things that also belong to another party. Using their logic of shutting down anything that borders on illegal, ff.net should shut itself down.

[kazaera.livejournal.com]

I was just thinking that - cracking down on anything that might violate copyright is just a little stupid, given that FFN is a fanfiction site.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Logic has never been ff.net's greatest trait. Nor has being tactful.

[darksylvia.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's fucked. If people post song lyrics and say "I wrote this" when it is clearly Britney Spears' writers, then there is something wrong. But to just use it as the lead-in quote, or in a certain place in the story, that's stupid.

I can see yanking it if there is more lyrics than story. Good-bye bad songfics. But otherwise, no.

*Hopes for the best*

[b2wm.livejournal.com]

Well, as folks have been writing at Deleterius, it may just be those who go on for pages with song lyrics and have maybe two lines of fic. Still, my filk is staying on LJ, if I even ever finish it.

[nodrogg.livejournal.com]

But - if the fanfic is set in a parallel universe, maybe the writer did write it - there! Not that a court here is going to much care...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I'm not taking any chances - bye, bye lyrics. I've just weeded them out of all my ff.net archived fics. I only ever used a few lines, but given that ff.net seems ban happy these days, away they go.

[darksylvia.livejournal.com]

Yeah, best not to take chances. My PPC was kicked off for being a MST. HA, I say, HA.

[siraj.livejournal.com]

*facepalms and goes to nfiction for a dose of sanity*

[megpie71.livejournal.com]

Well, if I could *find* my stuff on ff.net, I'd go to the trouble of removing my three filks, and the story "Breetown Yule" (which has a filked version of a wassail song interwoven verse by verse with the storyline). But as I apparently don't actually *have* anything up there - or at least, not that I can find by searching - I won't bother.

[losseniaiel.livejournal.com]

WTF?

Presumably this includes quotes from books, as well.

[x-blackknight-x.livejournal.com]

That's probably the next step...

I really don't use lyrics in my fics. I parody songs, but that's about it. But still, sometimes there's a perfect line that leads into your fic perfectly. *sigh*

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Was thinking just that, myself...

Gah. I've never written fanfics to post at FF.net to know, but that place doesn't sound like it's being too incredibly fun to use these days.

[nodrogg.livejournal.com]

I'm new to it myself - I'd never bothered with the idea, before, but this story idea occurred to me, and a friend suggested I try there - and it isn't very difficult at all. It's truly amusing - not to mention astonishing - to see what people will write 'fan fic' about. I'm pretty sure... yes, there're 229 'My Little Pony' stories there (!) 'The Hardy Boys.' The Six Million Dollar Man. Grand Theft Auto. Unbelievable.

Why no 'Tom Swift', though? I guess I'll have to write one...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

There's Minesweeper fanfics, too.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

And soon, the fan will be gone from the fiction.

[ressie-noldo.livejournal.com]

Oh, for the love of...

I've just about given up on FF.Net ever gaining some measure of sanity, anyway. I just go there to reach a larger audience (Really, there are lots of nice, reasonable, intelligent people there, underneath the seething fangirly horde).

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know. They're hard to find these days, though.

[ressie-noldo.livejournal.com]

Perhaps they've run away in horror? I almost have...Not that I'm very nice or reasonable, but that is where the analogy breaks down.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I can't say I blame them - I want to run away too. Wait for meeeeeee!

[kazaera.livejournal.com]

Hell, I've never been that fond of songfics - but egads! This is getting ridiculous!

RPF I could understand; the legalities are even more unsure on that point than on fanfic in general.
NC-17 I didn't care about one way or another as I don't read it.
Script format I was more upset about; although I don't care for chatroom-fic, this would affect everything in script format - including stuff like P@L's Leithian Script O.o
Interactive fic was pushing it; okay, so the "leave a review with your character" stuff was getting on my nerves, but choose-your-own-adventure is a genre, and second-person/you based? If that means all fics written in second person pov... they have got to be kidding.
Now this - on the one hand, the lyrics are copyrighted. On the other hand, this is fanfic - if we really want to make sure we don't violate copyright, we shouldn't be writing anything at all - and songfic has always been an accepted part of fanfic.

In short, this is getting more and more ridiculous. The way this is going, we'll soon only be able to post G-rated, 3-person-limited, stories to certain categories. Gah! >_<;;

The problem is, of course, that it is the biggest fanfiction archive out there and although we know of other, better ones, newbies tend to gravitate to FFN. I know I did.

...*kicks stupid site admins*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

That's the problem, yeah. And it's convinient for smaller fandoms without archives of their own. The whole cross-fandom aspect is also handy.

If they ever get R fics off too, I think I shall leave. Gah.

[musemistress.livejournal.com]

To make it even more confusing...R is now M...and why is that? To make life that much harder to understand on ff.net.

These "rules" that keep on coming up...it's like posting a signboard about 15 feet into the air with 14font writing on it stating all the kingdom's laws back in the ages when no commoner could read...and then punishing those who break the law.


If this 'plagerism' issue is so bad, why doesn't ff.net specify a little bit more directly as to WHAT rules a writer breaks when writing fanfiction. I really can't see how punishing a mountain over a molehill problem is going to help anything...we still do not know how much is acceptable and each time we think we are ok, our fingers get burnt off.

And for once...may a complaint over a story and/or it's content PLEASE be at least confirmed by a glance at the story itself? I could get Scribe kicked off ff.net entirely and she is one of the best writers on there...and this could be my simple minded self saying to the administration...
"This writer is using real life situations, I thought that was not allowed on ff.net. Also, I did not approve of her rating. The amount of violence in these fics should have it pushed up or taken off ff.net entirely and placed somewhere else. Yours sincerely, a 15 year old Sue." (and this letter would be merely hiding the fact said writer of the letter doesn't like elves getting hurt a lot)

The abuse of the system has gone on too long. Too many jump at the gun reactions to letters complaining about stories, and too many non-precise warnings as to how to NOT break the rules.


Am now wondering if using the Brunnen G marching song from 'Lex' as a small uplifter in two scenes from one story may be breaking rules now. I wouldn't know...it hasn't been specified.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

The ratings change I believe was due to legal reasons - some organisation claimed the PG and NC-17 etc names for ratings were theirs.

If ff.net actually bothered to properly look at complaints, a lot of grief could be spared, me thinks.

[beregondsgirl.livejournal.com]

Since FF.net's appeal is diminishing rapidly in my eyes... I've got to ask about where else I *could* post a fic I'm working on.

It's a massive crossover, so I thought that I'd have to put it on ff.net, 'cause that's the only site --as far as I know-- that hosts multiple fandoms.

So, just curious about that.

[elvea-aure.livejournal.com]

There should be a PPC/OFUM/all the good fics that got bullshitted off FF.net domain. I'd make a domain and a programme and run it, but I haven't the time, or the money... there definitely should be one, though. FF.net sucks.

[sekhmets-temple.livejournal.com]

Huh. So. When are the Lyrics Police going to crack down on all the people who have made/are using icons that employ song lyrics?

This is fucked.