Of all the reviews to get...
Jun. 4th, 2003 01:21 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
misscamI did not just get one suggesting I should work in a wedding for Lina and Gimli because the reviewer was uncomfortable seeing them having sex and not being married.
*checks* Yes, I did.
I'm sure my parents, unmarried and together for 27 years now, would be amused. If anything, that review is likely to make me *not* write in a wedding at all. I had considered it, but mostly because a wedding Dwarf style would be fun.
Oh well, we'll see.
*checks* Yes, I did.
I'm sure my parents, unmarried and together for 27 years now, would be amused. If anything, that review is likely to make me *not* write in a wedding at all. I had considered it, but mostly because a wedding Dwarf style would be fun.
Oh well, we'll see.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Oh, that's hilarious!
Date: 2003-06-04 12:33 am (UTC)I think you could still do a wedding, but skew it.
(1) Gimli reveals, either as part of the ceremony or on the wedding night, that he is and always has been a woman. (They're supposed to be indistinguishable to everyone else, after all!)
(2) Either the wedding night or the marriage itself - or both - includes a third party.
(3) Gimli introduces her to little-known and exotic Dwarf customs like the Swingers' Den, the Husband Exchange, the Ladies' Erotic Beard-Braiding Circle, the Greased Elf Chase, the Rite of the Mithril Manacles, and the Pilgrimage of the Horny Mountain.
And...(damn the lack of edit function!)
Date: 2003-06-04 12:45 am (UTC)(5) Dwarves are very earthy. Few people know exactly what the wedding litany really means (it being in Khuzdul and all) but it's really extremely explicit. (see Sumerian Inanna/Dummuzi poetry for inspiration - it's kind of like the NC-17 version of the Song of Solomon.)
no subject
Date: 2003-06-04 01:48 am (UTC)But...er...ignore the review because I want to see a Dwarf wedding. I wonder if exchanging rings would be a touchy subject in Middle Earth? Perhaps an exchange of axes instead.
As a hopelessly old-fashioned prude myself...
Date: 2003-06-04 08:45 am (UTC)(Of course, by Elven standards, they're already married... but I digress.)
Keep in mind that in America, at least, most people *do* still get married at some point. It's very rare over here to find a couple like your parents. So while the idea that, although committed for life, Lina will never walk down the aisle might not offend a Norwegian, it probably shocks a lot of Americans, even if they view marriage as just a formality. (This is quite apart from the moral arguments against sex outside of marriage, which I won't get into here.)
Could you do me one favor, though? If you do write the wedding, please don't make Lina's wedding dress white.
Rose
Re: As a hopelessly old-fashioned prude myself...
Date: 2003-06-04 10:16 pm (UTC)Er. I'm getting married in three days, and I have been living with my fiance for almost six months already.
I'll give you two guesses what color my wedding dress is.
Okay. Here's the part where I rant about how this kind of attitude disturbs me, here and now in the 21st century. I promise to do my best not to be rude, mean or unfair.
1. I believe that regardless of sexual experience, EVERYONE deserves to be treated with respect and love when they decide to get married. The marriage should be celebrated for its own sake (i.e., the joining of two lives in joy and love), not for the sake of the two participants being virgins. If the bride wants to, then she should be allowed to wear white - or whatever else she wants to wear!
White is a symbol of beginnings. In a very narrow(-minded) sense, it can certainly be applied to mean that instead of making simply a general, life-changing beginning, the bride is making, specifically, a SEXUAL beginning by getting married. Which brings me to my second point.
2. Nobody EVER says ANYTHING about the groom wearing white. Ever. What, MEN are supposed to get married with a couple notches on their belt, but women should be pure as the driven snow? Is that what whores are for, to let men get some much-needed experience (and a couple of VDs) to pass on to their still-in-the-original-packaging wives? Because obviously they're not supposed to be screwing their blushing-brides-to-be, so where else are they going to get it? Even *talking* about this makes me sick. The sexual double standard has A LOT more to it than this, but this is a big part of it. There was a study done, showing that a survey group thought that the proper number of men a woman should sleep with before getting married, is three. The same people thought that the proper number of women a man should sleep with before getting married, is SEVEN. Uh, where are these guys supposed to be getting the other four?
That's all I'm going to say about reason #2.
3. Are we *human beings*, or what? This is my fiance's third marriage. By the puritanical standards we're considering, our MARRIED LIFE, legally recognized by the state of New York, will be adultery. Because after all, nobody should ever get divorced, right? I mean, we all make perfect choices the first time around, don't we? So my husband really won't be MY husband, because he's still morally bound to his first wife. ...Sorry, sometimes anger manifests itself as sarcasm.
Really though - is this the kind of crap that people still *believe*?? I'm sorry, but it hurts my brain to think that someone out there will be upset by the concept of me wearing a certain color dress as I pledge my troth to the man I love. Makes me wonder if that 'someone' would want to kick my gay brother-in-law to death, too. I mean, just *think* of it - A GAY MAN allowed to live peacefully in 2003! How awful!
I'm sorry, I promised to try not to be mean, rude or unfair. I guess I failed. But guess what? I'm still going to wear my nice white wedding dress on Saturday.
-Penn, still pissed
Re: As a hopelessly old-fashioned prude myself...
Date: 2003-06-06 07:09 pm (UTC)Penn, I'm sorry, but I think you're wrong. You do have the right to wear whatever color you choose for your wedding. But it saddens me that that sort of thing has lost its meaning; white is traditionally the color of purity, regardless of the setting. (For the record, I also get upset to hear people brag about getting smashed on Sundays, and I was livid that the Elian Gonzales fiasco came to a head on Holy Saturday.)
Regarding point number two, I will simply say that a) most grooms I've known have worn black tuxes, regardless; and b) both my future husband and I will have the right to wear white. Yes, the double standard is sickening and wrong; I think *both* should remain pure. Not only is it morally right, but you also don't have to worry or wonder about STDs, exes showing up on the doorstep claiming that the husband fathered their child(ren), etc. (I don't mean to imply anything about anyone by making that remark; it's just an observation, given the state of things today.)
I'm not going to touch the divorce issue. I hate divorce, but I know that such things can and do happen, and the idea of remarriage has to be dealt with between the couple and God. It can cause havoc, or it can bring stability. A lot depends on the situation. As for homosexuality, I think it's wrong, but so is out-and-out harrassment. Murder is murder, after all; the motive doesn't matter, nor does the deservedness of the death ("Many live that deserve death," etc.).
I'm sorry I offended you so strongly, Penn. But that's truly what I believe. Like I said, I'm a hopelessly old-fashioned prude.
Rose
Re: As a hopelessly old-fashioned prude myself...
Date: 2003-06-09 02:55 pm (UTC)Before I start with the opinion giving process, let me first say that, like Rose, I am a conservative Christian. Keep that in mind, or don't. Whatever.
Also keep in mind that I'm hopelessly tired right now. If this isn't exactly coherent, forgive me. I need sleep. :P
About double standards:
They disgust me. However, as I am a Christian I will again speak from this general point of view.
Christians are expected by God to be pure when they get married. Not women. Not men. Everyone. God doesn't have double standards. Someone mentioned something about surveys and such before. I can't remember who at the moment. In any event, they were mentioned. I read not too long ago about a survey taken amongst women that remained pure until they were married versus those that hadn't. The virgin brides tended to be more satisfied sexually than the women that didn't wait.
I personally think that regardless of being "satisfied" or not, you shouldn't sleep with anyone until after you're married to that person. I realize that this isn't the "norm" in 2003 and hasn't been for a while now, but what's normal isn't always what's right. In fact, since it is 2003, it's usually wrong!
I also feel it's wrong for those who aren't Christians or of any other conservative faith to act as if we who are should accept more liberal opinions, while those with more liberal opinions aren't accepting of ours. Talk about your double standards, eh? Before anyone flies off the handle here, I'm not pointing at anyone in particular. I'm just putting into words something I've noticed in general for a long time. It irks me, y'know...
On the wedding dress and its color:
In modern society, white is considered the color of purity. Regardless of who started this trend, that's the way it is.
Men do wear white sometimes. At my own wedding, I plan to wear white (and with a clear conscience), but I want my groom to wear black. Not because of anything other than I prefer black tuxedos instead of white or any other color.
People may think that remaining pure until you're married is out-dated, back-woodsy or some other negative descriptive term, but I am a virgin and plan to be one when I get married. I only hope that my future husband has the same respect for me.
One thing that bothers me...
Date: 2003-06-09 03:33 pm (UTC)Why does being a virgin have anything to do with being 'pure'? Using the terms synonomously suggests that virgins are clean and anyone who is not a virgin--whether a whore OR a married woman who has only ever slept with her husband, is soiled or tarnished somehow.
Seriously. Think about it. You said yourself that ths idea is to remain pure until you're married. Why pure? Sex is sex whether you're married to the person you're having sex with, or not. So if you're pure prior to the loss of your virginity, you're going to be impure (dirty, tainted) after the loss of it. A wife will be just as impure after losing her virginity as an unmarried woman.
The suggestion that virginity equals purity, while loss of virginity equals being soiled, just confuses me. That's all.
Re: One thing that bothers me...
Date: 2003-06-09 03:47 pm (UTC)Well, the way that I mean virgin is a given, right?
As far as virginity=purity while loss of virginity=impurity goes, I'll put it this way: IF you are married to the person, you are still pure. Thus the whole "keeping the marriage bed pure" bit that people like to use. (This meaning, of course, that you sleep only with the person you're married to period. Not that you only keep the particular bed you share free of any other sexual activity.)
*sigh* This is difficult for me to explain to those that possibly don't share the same beliefs I do.
If you are not married to someone and you sleep with them, you become unclean or impure. Yes, you are tainted. Soiled. Whatever word you prefer. If you refrain from such activities until you are married, and then keep to these activities with only that person, you remain pure, although you lose your virginity.
Virginity DOES equal purity, but not having your virginity still intact does NOT automatically equal impurity. It depends on how it came to be lost.
Does that make better sense? Like I said, I'm tired and not very coherent right now. :P
I'm also having a bad day for some reason. That doesn't help one put one's thoughts into words does it? :P
Re: One thing that bothers me...
Date: 2003-06-09 07:34 pm (UTC)TOPIC CLOSED.
Re: As a hopelessly old-fashioned prude myself...
Date: 2003-06-09 07:32 pm (UTC)Closed, get it? My LJ is indeed my livejournal, and not a fricking debate forum. Could you please have enough respect for me to actually read my actual posts before you launch into some speech?
As for I also feel it's wrong for those who aren't Christians or of any other conservative faith to act as if we who are should accept more liberal opinions, while those with more liberal opinions aren't accepting of ours. Talk about your double standards, eh? Before anyone flies off the handle here, I'm not pointing at anyone in particular. I'm just putting into words something I've noticed in general for a long time. It irks me, y'know...
You know, you might know people like that, but that does not make it all right for you to do the same. I am not Christian, for the hundredth time. I feel no obligation to adhere to Christian moral standards, and thus there is no point launching into a speech of why it is right to wait on my LJ(I haven't started posting on your with 'Oh, you must see the widom of Odin and have wild orgies'). I read that post and feel Christian ethics stuffed down my throat for the umptenth time. I shouldn't have to. I said the topic was closed, could you kindly *all* respect that (yes, Amy, I'm looking at you too).
TOPIC CLOSED. Now. If you have grief with me, you can e-mail me a big fat rant.
Thanks Saphie, for actually reading my entries.
Re: As a hopelessly old-fashioned prude myself...
Date: 2003-06-09 08:00 pm (UTC)Bwahahaha!! *rolls on the floor, laughing so hard her sides hurt*
I'm sorry, I know, I know, no more on the subject, but that line just lept up and twoped me on the side of the head. Too good to pass up.
*wanders off, giggling*
Re: As a hopelessly old-fashioned prude myself...
Date: 2003-06-10 10:03 am (UTC)And I did say that I wasn't pointing to anyone in particular with my statement about opinions. And I meant that.
But this'll be my last word on it, unless you'd rather continue the discussion. I don't mean to offend when I speak, nor was I attempting to cram anything anywhere.
Again, my apologies for continuing the thread.
Re: As a hopelessly old-fashioned prude myself...
Date: 2003-06-10 10:47 am (UTC)However, I'm sorry that I caused you irritation, Miss Cam. Won't happen again.
Re: As a hopelessly old-fashioned prude myself...
Date: 2003-06-05 10:16 am (UTC)Me, I don't see why they should get married, but if they do, make it funny, and please, please *please* don't put any prudy values in there. Have depravity, and fun, and swinging, and more depravity!
no subject
Date: 2003-06-04 03:32 pm (UTC)Do what you wish, but right my vote (if you need a vote) it's for 'Whatever', which isn't that helpful I have completely wasted your time.
SuperLoser has done her job again!! {runs off while taking off neon orange tights}
Defence.
Date: 2003-06-04 04:24 pm (UTC)...but if it was a flame, I agree. How terribly rude. Go off and impose your beliefs on someone else for a better reason.
Nah, from what I saw it wasn't a flame...
Date: 2003-06-05 04:42 am (UTC)In fact, this is the exact wording:
Date: 2003-06-05 04:44 am (UTC)~Unadrieniel
no subject
Date: 2003-06-04 05:17 pm (UTC)HOW old is Lina again? O.o
And if she ever goes back to her real life - highly unlikely, but still there in my mind - how would she explain this? I guess she would pop back and forth, but explaining the fact that she had a husband in another dimension would be...unique.
So my final answer is...don't do it, just to spite her and also just because it might not fit. But then again, it would be cutely dysfunctional. So, with that conflicting answer, I guess I should conclude that I don't know what you should do and that ultimately, this comment is pointless and doesn't help you at all. :)
Kit
aka Lea of Mirkwood on FF.Net, and you reviewed my fic Kindle My Heart which will be undergoing a huge revision this summer. ^^
no subject
Date: 2003-06-05 09:21 am (UTC)Doesn't offend me in the least, and I'm a full-blooded American. I didn't even think of it as being strange in the least bit.
"Could you do me one favor, though? If you do write the wedding, please don't make Lina's wedding dress white."
Miss Cam, I don't even know what to say about this comment. This is disgusting. I think Penn's reply did a good job of coverering it for me.
I'm sorry this has to happen to you. You don't deserve the kind of crap people are sending. Why OFUM... ;(
~Shada
Hmmm....
Date: 2003-06-05 04:39 pm (UTC)Don't just marry Lina and Gimli for this reader, but a dwarven wedding would be....interesting, considering the dwarven greeting (OFUM, chapter 41).
So, that is my half-a-cent (Due to current Canadian currency....)
*snerk*
Date: 2003-06-05 11:21 pm (UTC)But at the same time I'd *love* to see a Dwarvish wedding! I think it would be hilarious and I really hope you do write it.
um, hello?
Date: 2003-06-06 10:30 pm (UTC)No Queen Victoria in Middle-earth = white wedding dresses not being the standard there. Has nothing to do with anyone's hymen or lack thereof, which I'd imagine most robust Middle-earth girls lost on horseback when they were 8 anyway.
AV, who's been living w/current boyfriend for over two years, has never been married, and doesn't care all that much either way. If it's an issue for you, fine, but for lots of people (yes, in America!) it isn't. I for one would NEVER buy a car I hadn't test-driven.
and another thing...
Date: 2003-06-06 10:50 pm (UTC)Seems to be changing, though...I've gone to a lot of friends' weddings over the past ten years or so, and only one woman wore white (and that was because she had a beautiful ivory sequined fringey flapper-ish top that used to belong to her grandmother, and she had it made into a very un-traditional gown, and it was lovely). I've seen deep blood red, cobalt blue, forest green, even chic gothy black. You go, girls!
If it ever happens, no white for me. Aside from the virgo intacta question (in my case - HAH! That passed into history back in the Reagan Administration and is not mourned), which is none of anybody's damn business anyway, I don't look good in it, I'm too pale and freckly. Deep jewel tones are my friends, and that's what I'd wear.
Black wedding dress?
Date: 2003-06-09 06:12 pm (UTC)You're right, some people (including me) just don't like or don't look good in white. And that should be respected.
I'd LOVE to see Gimli and Lina get married...
Date: 2003-06-08 06:18 pm (UTC)As for Rose, being used to talking to her on the PPC Board all the time and knowing she's a great person made it so what she said didn't bother me, though I do disagree with it.
My own parents got married and year after I was born, and not because they felt it was right, but just because they WANTED to, because they wanted to make vows to each-other in front of everyone they knew they'd love each-other for the rest of their lives. Also, one of my best friends in the entire world has parents who aren't married. Her father isn't her biological father, though, as he died when she was young, but she considers her current father as her father nonetheless. In any case, her mother and him have been together for most of my friend's life and they haven't gotten married. I see nothing wrong with it, as her mother's a wonderful person, and what I've heard about her father makes me think he's a wonderful person as well.
I believe that God/Allah/the Goddess/Insert Deity of Choice here (though I personally think it's something entirely different from every religion out there, but that's just me) is forgiving, and that the type of life you lead is far more important than what you believe in. And if it turns out that there is no God/Allah/the Goddess/Insert Deity here, then it's not going to matter anyway.
But that's just what I believe, I don't expect anyone to agree with me, and isn't my point anyway.
All I wanted to say was that though Rose said some things that were offensive to others of different beliefs, it's what SHE believes and she was only expressing her opinion, and she didn't mean any offense. And I doubt that reviewer did either, though she might've worded it a bit better...
In any case, I think that this is a subject where it would probably be best if everyone just agreed to disagree, rather than fill Miss Cam's livejournal with arguments. I this were a message board, it would be a different story...
Besides, for all we know Lina and Gimli ARE married. Who knows, Dwarves may mate for life. There might not even BE a formal ceremony for them. And even if they aren't married by dwarf standards, just because Middle-Earth was created by Christian author, it doesn't make it a world based on entirely on Christian values. I don't think it says anywhere in any of Tolkien's works that Eru or the Valar dissaproved of pre-marital sex. (If I am indeed wrong about that, please point it out to me.)
And it's just a story. A DAMN good 'un, for sure, but just a story. It's not worth fighting with REAL people over a fictional relationship between fictional characters.
But that's just what I think.
From what I gather...
Date: 2003-06-09 06:10 pm (UTC)ODE!
Date: 2003-06-09 06:47 pm (UTC)Imagine: Lina, after much soul-searching and examining of her feelings, is FINALLY ready, and the pops the question to Gimli (since he hasn't done it.) Then Gimli calmly explains that the Dwarven customs are similar to that of the Elves and that they HAVE been married ever since they first boinked.
And the mental picture...:
The look on Lina's face as she screeches, "WHAT?!!"
no subject
Date: 2003-06-08 08:35 pm (UTC)If the inspiration attacks, go for it! If not, big deal! Maybe I'm stupid, but like I said...I never even thought about it. I just thought they were funny.
Dwarven Weddings!
Date: 2003-07-13 01:30 pm (UTC)But as to marrying them, I think a Dwarven wedding would be *very* cool. It’s a fascinating idea, not to mention one with great comic potential. Hey, if you don’t want to, it’s your fic. But it would make an interesting plot turn, IMHO. :)
~StarlightWarrior