Disliking female characters versus disliking the writing of female characters

[misscam]

(This rant/pondering/opinion was inspired by this secret posted at fandomsecrets.)

I'll come right out and say it. Very, very few things bug me as much in fandom as the tendency to go actively hate on female characters and the way this is often done.

I've particularly come across this when dealing with het or slash pairings where the female in question is not in not included in that pairing, but might potentially be a hinderance, a threat or in that vein. This kind of hate often includes one or more of these aspects:

1) Degrading remarks like 'slut', 'whore, 'tramp' (etc), using sexuality against women.

2) Degrading remarks about the character's appearance, implying or stating outright she's unattractive, not worthy of another character's love and so on.

3) Degrading remarks about the characters' fans. Stuff like implying the fans are losers, as 'sad' as the character in question and so on.

4) Interpreting every action of the character in the worst possible light, while giving other characters much more leeway.

I'll give 4 a little more pass than the others, as it's a human thing in general to give favourites more leeway and want to see the bad in people you dislike, thereby justifying your feelings. I think it's good to keep in mind when having discussions about characters; awareness of your own bias in general is a good thing. 1 and 2 and somewhat 3? Bugs me the hell out. And this is often done by women. You might say that it's fictional characters, what does it matter? It matters when it's a mindset, when it's a mirror and a reflection of the current of sexism that still runs through society to varying degrees. I don't give it a pass in real life when I see it, whyever should I just because the characters are fictional? It's the mindset that bugs me more than anything, because I get bothered about this happening to characters I don't care about or even might not like that much myself.

However.

I also have a problem with how a lot of TV shows and movies and books write female characters. As a woman, a lot of potrayals feel sexist to me, overtly or subtly so.

(I admit I haven't always been the most conscious of this. Partly it's because I've been a silly teenager, and partly because I live in Norway and have handwaved some of this. Not that Norway doesn't have sexism, but I dare say we've come further than quite a few places and we deal with it in different ways. Quite simply, whenever I read or watch something American and British, I always have to put bits in a category of 'does not apply to me' due to cultural differences anyway and I fear some things have gone in there that shouldn't.)

A lot of this is simply that a lot of writing is still male dominated. (With exceptions.) This is not just a bad on males per say - women can have the same problems writing males at times. I see this in slash fiction and I've heard this from my brother about books he read by female authors with male protagonists. While I don't buy into the whole Mars and Venus divide (come on, we're the same species - stop using planets as an excuse for not having conversations) I do think it requires a bit of effort to cross the gender cap, whether you consider it a cultural construct or not. But! this does not go just for gender - it takes that effort to write about another culture too. Given how often that gets done badly too, perhaps this is a problem of preconcieved ideas guiding us more than genuine understanding.

My problem with a lot of writing of women is that a lot of times it feels like the character works as a category rather than a personality. She's a Love Interest, she's a Mother, she's a Hot Villain... Now, this doesn't necessarily mean I come to dislike a character I feel is written like that. I might, if it's a visual medium, find the acting compelling enough to overcome this and thus still like the character. Or I fill in my own blanks and nuances and like the character for what she is in my head.

(I'm pretty sure I've done this with both Rose and Martha in Doctor Who. I'm more inclined to do this with female characters in romance, I think, because I am a sap and enjoy a love story and want to enjoy it. So, if a show pushes a romantic pairing and I want to like that pairing, I am more willing to work my way around having problems with how the woman might be written.)

But I still have this niggling, bubbling, persistent annoyance that more and more seem to camp out in my brain and I'm not sure I want it to go away. I want to enjoy my recreational habits (TV, movies, books), but why must I handwave sexism in varying degree to do so? That's not okay, you know. It's really not.

Am I making any sense here or am I rambling?

I guess my point boils down to this: I abhor a lot of the bashing of female characters in fandom, and at the same time often have problems with the portrayal of women in fiction. (And in real life media, hoo yeah.) I don't think either excludes the other, because both can be motivated by sexism, consciously or otherwise. And whenever I find awesome female characters that writing and portrayal makes so, I am all the more happy.

So now I'm thinking about doing a Female Character Appreciation Week - spotlighting some fictional women I really like. I already know I'd stick in Laura Roslin, Miranda Bailey (I don't much like Grey's Anatomy these days, but she kicks ass from here to Jupiter) possibly Harriet Jones and/or Sarah Jane and a couple of other candidates. Who would be yours and why? I'd like to spotlight some beyond my fandoms too - and feel free to add yours reasons to those I've mentioned.

Comments

[mistress-mab.livejournal.com]

Sarah Connor - The SCC
CJ Cregg - The West Wing
Leia Organa - Star Wars

[starletfallen.livejournal.com]

Y'know, I saw that last paragraph and was going to say CJ Cregg, no question.

And then I saw first comment, CJ. WOOHOO!

[ashmeadows.livejournal.com]

How very true! One of the other things I've noticed, and this happens a lot on fiction, is the author goes so far out of their way to avoid a "feminine stereotype" that they create a female character that is completely unbelievable because they're trying so hard to avoid stereotypes of femininity. It's rare to find an author that can skillfully and successfully write believable and unique female characters without falling victim to a stereotype or "anti-stereotype."

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Yes. I can appreciate the effort of wanting to avoid certain ugly stereotypes, but when trying too hard it loses credibility and thus a bit of the point.

[greyladybast.livejournal.com]

Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5. Not only did God send Ivanova, Ivanova IS God.

Kira Nerys, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

Speaking of DS9, either Dax, too, though I personally prefer Jadzia to Ezri.

While I'm on Star Trek, how about Captain Janeway? Or even Uhura, who was NOT just a glorified space-receptionist but in fact Head of Communications and possibly fourth in line in the chain of command, just under Scotty.

Catwoman. Not Halle Berry's, but the comicbook Catwoman. Flippin' Catwoman, yo!

I'm quite fond of Door from Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere, as well. Cute, sweet, polite, and totally in control of her situation at all times. Plus, one of the few people who could shut the Marquis De Carabas up.

Gaiman's Death, as well. Awesome, awesome, awesome chick, that Death.

How about Servalan from Blake's 7? She DID win that intergalactic dick-measuring contest without even really trying, and rebuilt her power base from pretty much nothing not once, but twice. So she's evil. So what?

Don't even get me started on old-school Who companions. Not just Sarah Jane or Romana, either, but Ace, Leela, Nyssa (friggin' brilliant woman, and the only one who could actually handle the Fifth Doctor!), Tegan (whiny and bitchy, but she had cause and was brave as all shit and not even the tiniest bit hesitant to talk back to the Doctor), Liz Shaw, Barbara Wright, Zoe, and on and on and on, even down to the one-shots like Princess Astra or that older woman from Stones of Blood, whose name I forget.....

On the non-sci-fi front, I absolutely adore Dharma from Dharma and Greg. She completely controls her own existance and world.

Margaret "Hot Lips" Hoolihan from M*A*S*H took fabulous care of her patients and nurses, and didn't put up with Hawkeye's crap.

Carla from Cheers had the fastest wit in that show. Most rutheless, too.

Donna from That 70's Show may have been the only one there with a functional brain. Kitty, the mom from the same show, held her own as well, AND in a time and household where that wasn't necessarily encouraged. Plus, she was the only one who could shut Red down. And while Midge, Donna's mom, might not have been the brightest bulb in the package, she was organizer of the Park Place feminists, and wasn't afraid to persue her own interests or make sure her own needs got met.

Jordan from Crossing Jordan, Amy from Judging Amy, all three (ok, four) Halliwell sisters from Charmed, and on and on and on. There are a LOT of awesome women on TV. You just have to look for them.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I'm quite fond of Door from Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere,

If we're allowed to go literary, every woman Terry Pratchett writes. He said once that he got an award from the Girl Guides for writing a book about a "real" girl.

My problem with a lot of TV heroines is that they start *out* strong and competent and then get lobotomized along the way. Laura from Remington Steele, for example.

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

#4. #4!!!! OH MY GOD IF I HAD A DOLLAR FOR EVERY TIME I WANTED TO SHOVE SOMEONE'S BIAS IN THEIR FACE AND UP THEIR NOSE SO MAYBE IT'D COME IN CONTACT WITH THEIR BRAIN. I don't mind if you like one character better than another. I mind if you do that, and then pretend you're totally objective and that of course your reasoning is perfectly logical and right and no other alternative exists. But ayup, 1 and 2 and 3 have all been sighted, too. Sometimes it's so very subtle, but it's still there. Guh. And people ask me why I dropped out of fandom.

I'm going to get wtfs for this one, but Allison Cameron from House. Inconsistent writing all over the place, and yet the character finds a cohesive whole in my head that makes a really complicated, fucked up woman who's trying to find her way, who hates compromising with the world, and who still gives a damn (at least, that's how it was when I left fandom, things might've changed). I kinda like her, and it's hard to pinpoint why.

Granny Weatherwax. Self-explanatory.

River Tam. Also self-explanatory.

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes--and Renee Montoya. Read her wiki.

[sc-angel72.livejournal.com]

Samantha Carter from SG-1. She's managed to climb to the top of a typcially male career, but within the military, no less. And then just when the character starts coming across as "one of the boys" or worse, gay (don't freak, anybody, I'll explain that!), we get to see a glimpse that she is feminine, not one of the guys and has a life outside her career.

By the being gay reference, let me clarify. I have NO problem with a women being portrayed as gay or bi or stright. Whichever, whatever. What i do have a problem with is when a female character is, well, characterized as straight, but she's struggling in a man's world and succeeding, then she must be gay, right? Or the converse, that a gay woman really wants to be straight, but she's been scarred, so she can't quite get there for fear that another man will hurt her. *eyeroll* Because a woman can't just BE? Please. (Obviously my particular soapbox. Hope I explained that well enough not to come across too wrong!!!!)

[rionaleonhart]

I'll give 4 a little more pass than the others, as it's a human thing in general to give favourites more leeway and want to see the bad in people you dislike, thereby justifying your feelings.

What I've noticed lately - and this troubles me more than a little - is that I sometimes find myself judging female characters more harshly than male characters even if the female characters are amongst my favourites.


(Below are spoilers for the second season of Prison Break. Not for deaths or anything, but still. Spoilers.)


There's a character in Prison Break called Sara Tancredi, and I absolutely bloody love her. She is in a car with Michael Scofield, who is driving. Two men they are working with, B and K, have just rescued another man (P) from an attack. P and B get into the car, but Sara locks the door before K can get in. There's no time to linger, because the attackers are regaining consciousness, so Scofield sets off, leaving K behind.

My first thought was 'for goodness' sake, Sara, K is working with you now! He just helped save that guy!'

My second was 'for goodness' sake, self, K betrayed Sara's trust, kidnapped her, electrocuted her and tried to drown her a few episodes ago. He may say he's changed sides now, but you cannot blame Sara in the slightest for trying to keep him out.'

Then again, I had almost cheered when Sara outright tried to strangle K earlier. Not - not because I'm a particular advocate of strangulation, but because, man, it was cathartic after K had been such a bastard to her. Perhaps I'm only overly judgmental when female characters are being a bit underhanded (had Scofield locked K out - certainly a possibility, as he doesn't really trust K - I'm not sure I would have had the initial 'FOR GOODNESS' SAKE' reaction, even though Sara clearly had far better reasons). In any case, double standards are bad and I probably need to change the way I look at things a little.

Also, Sara is awesome.

(Other female characters I love: Cameron (man, she's so adorable I don't care if she's a stereotype), Cuddy and Thirteen from House. Fran, Lulu, Paine, Celes, Freya, Selphie and Yuffie from various Final Fantasies. Ruby and Ellen from Supernatural (I've got a secret fondness for Bela, too. And, er, Jess, even though she's in, what, two episodes?). Sam Carter from Stargate SG-1. Donna from Doctor Who, of course. There are others, but those are the ones that come most quickly to mind.)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

THat is a bit iffy to notice - but really, I've seen that a lot in fandom. Women get judged much more harshly than men - heck, more unappealing men personality-wise get the 'just misunderstood woobie' thing all the time. The trend of it, I don't like.

But at least catching yourself tells you something about awareness of it. It is hard to escape certain society standards and certain ways of thinking we'd had plotted into us since young. Awareness is definitely a needed start, though. I know I need to work harder on that myself.

[cincoflex.livejournal.com]

Is it possible to consider that the label 'stereotype' can also be seen as 'archetype' as well? Given the vast history of The Story, and the honest realization that there really aren't any new ideas out there, I find it personally easier to take the titles we give certain characters as more than just convenient catagories for them.

I sometimes feel that sexism isn't necessarily a bad thing; sure there are abuses of it all throughout television and literature, but there are also plenty of situations where the essence of what makes a woman or a man who they are works to great effect.

I think of Emma Peel, for example, or Alma Garrett, from Deadwood.

And then again there are times when a character's gender is the last thing I see, like, believe it or not, The Doctor. I've watched several episodes of Doctor Who without considering his sex.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I think having sexism as a fact of the world also there in fiction is quite believable, and as you say, it can lift women to greater heights because they have to confront taht and still kick ass.

But I was talking more of sexism as a lens, which all the writer writes is coloured by. He or she doesn't write about sexism, they write sexist, if that makes sense. *That* tends to bug me when it constantly happens.

You're right that stories tend to have a certain format and a certain type of character to further the story, but you can still manage to give, say a type hero character, personality, motivation and a feeling of being real. I get that feeling a lot less about female characters - though it's not always and I think some genres are better than others.

[gargantua29.livejournal.com]

Sara Pezzini from Witchblade. She is tough, but still flawed, and never one to cower.

[falena]

How can you write this on five hours of sleep and after a morning of work?
Give me a piece of your brain, I could use it and you obviously have enough to spare.

Personally, I'm guilty of #4 and *is very ashamed* #1. Well, when it comes to #1 I like to think I sort of outgrown that attitude, ever since fandom made me realise a) that I was guilty of that b) that it is despicable.
The only excuse I can claim is precisely what you said: it's a mindset, when it's a mirror and a reflection of the current of sexism that still runs through society to varying degrees. This is something the society I live in is still plagued with, and the fact that I realised it only after coming in contact with people from all over the world thanks to the internet simply proves my point, I reckon.

I shall think about what Female Characters I Consider Awesome. Dozens come to mind, but I need to classify them according to the different degrees of awesomeness. I R very skientific.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Paws off my brain. After writing this and my too-little-sleep, I had to go home and have and after dinner nap, like I was old or something.

Italy does seem to have quite a bit of residual shit about women, from all accounts. Heck, Berlu proves that every day, especially with what he puts on his way-too-many-TV-channels. Since we are all a product of our upbringing, it's not surprising attitudes you get fed lingers. All the more kudos for realising the wrong.

Lol, you should make a post - your scientific approaches to these things amuse me greatly.

[starletfallen.livejournal.com]

Harriet Hayes from "Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip" (see icon). She's one female character I think was written REMARKABLY WELL, considering she's female and a Christian, and her writer was a male athiest. She's smart, she's funny, she's not afraid to stand up for herself or her faith - and she works in TELEVISION. She's all around an exceptional character who is extremely poorly written in most fanfic I've found (there's not that much), and I would be MORE than willing to type up some more about her for you if you're interested. :)

[dawning-star.livejournal.com]

Sara Sidle - CSI - Of all the regulars on the show, she was the one that was consistently given the most humanity. She was flawed--headstrong, beautiful, intelligent, but very much flawed, angry, and dealing with issues from her childhood. I could appreciate that so, so much.

Also, can I draw your attention over here? It has nothing to do with the subject of this post or comment, but it is something I'd like to do. :D

[fried-flamingo.livejournal.com]

What I've also noticed recently is that there is also a reluctance in fandom to accept any feminist discussion with regard to fictional characters.

Case in point, the recent backlash against a community set up to discuss feminist perspectives on the Pirates of the Caribbean movie. There were criticisms that those who wished to discuss the movies in such light were merly barking at shadows. Afterall, they're set on board pirate ships in the 18th century when feminism didn't exist, so how can anyone possibly view them from a feminist perspective. Not only that, but they're summer popcorn movies. We're not supposed to take them seriously.

There seemed to be a reluctance to accept the fact that they were made in the 21st century and are not historical document, but most certainly a product of our time. Same goes for a show whether it's set in space, in the future, in some alternate reality. Point is they're made in the here and now and are certainly open for discussion from almost any perspective.

As for character bashing, I can understand people disliking specific female characters if they have valid reasons for doing so (same goes for male characters), however to make the general statement 'I don't like female characters' - *shrug* I just don't get it. Nor do I get criticism being flung at people who do want to examine popular culture in a bit more detail, because surely the fact that it is popular wil tell us a bit more about the society we live in.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I vaguely remember wank about this? Didn't shipping wank get involved in this?

Point is they're made in the here and now and are certainly open for discussion from almost any perspective.

In general, I agree with this, though I do think you have to take into account what historical time it's meant to represent (if historical) when you do this. It depends of course how accurate, say, a movie is trying to be. And I think one should be a bit careful making bombastic statements when taking another perspective of things - there's your own bias for one, and the fact that perspective is indeed a perspective and otehrs can have an equal opposite different perspective again.

I think people get a bit testy about looking at popular culture like that if they feel if they don't do it, they're of 'less intellect' or some such. But it is interesting what it says about our tastes and perhaps more accurately, what is percieved to be our taste. I did a semester of views on Australian popular culture, and it was very interesting - also because my view of it as an outsider differed from those who grew up with it.

[starsong24.livejournal.com]

I really like female characters from mostly-obscure fandoms. Cassie and Rachel from Animorphs, for example -Rachel because she was a kickass character with very definite views on right and wrong in love, and Cassie because she was very loving and sometimes very wise, which isn't something most people can say.

Esmay Suiza from the Serrano Legacy also gets my vote, since, apart from being a competent leader, she managed to have personal problems and work through them. Oh, and Sonea from the Black Magician trilogy, who was incrediby powerful but had to work hard to keep her powers under control.

[clanne.livejournal.com]

Mary Richards, and all the other women from The Mary Tyler Moore Show. It's from way before my time, but it's the show that inspired my mother and countless other young women growing up in the '70s to fight for their dream life and push through the glass ceiling.

Rosemary Boxer and Laura Thyme from Rosemary and Thyme- because being old doesn't mean that you don't still rock. They're smart and talented and although they have a surprising tendency to stumble across dead bodies in gardens, but they're great, realistic heroines and prove to all viewers that life doesn't end or get any less exciting as you get older.

I love this thread! It's so uplifting. There is so much hate in the fan world for female characters, which is crazy since it seems the overwhelming number of online fans are female. I just started watching BSG and I keep finding posts bashing the main female characters and I can't understand it. Why would you bash Roslin? Or Kara? Why? You don't have to love them all, just appreciate that they have both good characteristics and bad. Like most people.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Urk. Bashing. I haven't seen as much of it on Roslin and Kara, though. I've seen it much more on Dee - a disturbing lot from Kara/Lee shippers. The motivation seems fairly clear there, but it's still quite depressing. I mean, one person wrote a fic calling Dee a 'toffee barbie'. FAIL FAIL FAIL.

[mercuriazs.livejournal.com]

(come on, we're the same species - stop using planets as an excuse for not having conversations)

Annnd you just became my hero.

I have lots of women I love to pieces! Antigone of Greek fame, Chuck from Pushing Daisies, Utena of Shoujo Kakumei Utena (one of the ... relatively few ... anime characters I continue to love and admire as I've gotten older), recently Mina Murray/Harker ... and as much as I'm not a fan of how much she looks like she needs a hamburger, I really enjoy the character of Fiona from Burn Notice.

I did notice, however, as I tend to when I make these lists, that there does seem to be a dearth of female characters I really admire compared to male characters. D:

[elvenpiratelady.livejournal.com]

If we're going with mythology as well, I vote Medea. She's brilliant, ruthless, bloodthirsty and awesome.

[sliven.livejournal.com]

Oh, a Female Character Appreciation Week sounds like an awesome idea!
I'd second nominating Granny Weatherwax, but I'd also add Susan Sto-Helit, Nanny Ogg and Angua from Discworld.

Then, I'd like to add more or less half the cast from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but I'll settle for Buffy, Wilow and Faith.

Donna from Doctor Who. Because she's as far from a "woman added as a love-object" you can get.

Neil Gaiman's Coraline. Because she kicks ass.

Lynne Stone from "Girls just want to have fun". Because she's that best friend you always wish you had. Plus, she kicks ass.

My list could go on and on. ^_^

Have you got any concrete ideas for how this appreciation week would happen?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Figured I'd pick a week and make one post a day looking at one specific awesome woman, probably with some recommended fics (if applicable) or meta about them or where to read/watch/catch them if they're not characters you're familiar with.

Dunno yet, it'll have to be after my holiday in any case.

I love so many of the Discworld women, I do.

[bluerosefairy.livejournal.com]

Oh, you are fantastic, Cam. I saw that secret and had a freakout at carla_scribbles about how disliking women =/= disliking the way in which women are written. You said everything I wanted to articulate myself.

And ooh, for FCAW, I have to nominate:

Abbey Bartlet (The West Wing). From the moment she is introduced in the series, she is a perfect match for her husband, Jed - who just happens to be the President of the United States. She is funny, intelligent, and calls her husband "Jackass", occasionally in public. And yet, Abbey is so very flawed. She violates her medical license by treating Jed's MS by herself, prescribing him medicine without any other doctor's consent, and concealing the condition from the American public. She cuts Jed out of her life when his assassination of a foreign defense minister causes their daughter to be kidnapped, and goes a little overprotective on said daughter when they get her back. She smothers Jed on his bad days, and drives the staff nuts. Ultimately, she is a fantastic, but flawed character in a show full of them. And I heart her SO MUCH.

Zoe Alleyne Washburn (Firefly/Serenity). Oh, Zoe is made of win. I want to be Zoe when I grow up - all sharpshooting, slinky-dress-wearing, sarcasm-abusing, wife soup-making, warrior woman of her. Zoe is more than a little broken, but she loved her husband and didn't care who knew it. She will punch Mal out right after calling him "sir", and can scare the hell out of Jayne. Zoe was not afraid to bring a child into the 'verse she lived in, and I wish she'd gotten her chance.

Iris Crowe (Carnivale). Where do I start? On my List of Best and Scariest Female Characters Ever Written, before there was Laura Roslin, Marisa Coulter, and Harriet Jones, there was Iris Crowe. Quite simply, Iris is the big sister of the Antichrist, and she is around to give him an ego boost or a smackdown whenever he is in need. And she's more than capable of it - she's got a backbone of steel and a moral compass that behaves like Jack Sparrow's. Iris is a sweet, unassuming churchlady spinster like Laura Roslin is a meek, needy, inexperienced schoolteacher. She burns down orphanages, sends innocent girls to their certain rape and death, kills people with boat oars, and ultimately sells out her brother all because it's what must be done, and who else is going to pull it off with such style and never get caught? Iris is scary and awesome and completely batshit insane, and deserves all the love in the world.

Annie Cartwright (Life on Mars). For putting up with a squadroom full of sexist pigs, Sam Tyler's ever-varying mental breakdowns and killer mood swings, and Gene Hunt for a DCI, Annie should be sainted. Annie puts her ass on the line, whether it's in uniform as the first woman detective in Manchester or out of it, undercover as "Cherie Blair", to bring down a rich murderer. Rather than curl up and cry when the men slap her ass and order her around, she slaps back, then outperforms them every time. There's no way Alex Drake and Sharon Granger could have even thought of being a detective if it weren't for Annie.

Amber Volakis (House M.D.) There's a reason they called her "Cutthroat Bitch", and I loved her for it. She was competitive, manipulative, funny, sarcastic, and got herself a Wilson - no wonder they called her the "female House". Amber doesn't get nearly as much love as she should get.

And no one will ever get this fandom/character, but I adore her to pieces and she needs more love in a very tiny, young, and male-based fandom.

Juliet Butler (Artemis Fowl). Juliet is probably the closest I could ever identify with a character - always in the boys' shadows, a raging wrestling fan, and just a little too soft in the heartplaces when it comes to being a professional. I could no more have completed training at Madame Ko's than Juliet did, not when her brother needed her. While we all love Arty and Butler and Foaly and Root (and apparently, Holly), it's Juliet that I'm always scanning for, when I read the AF books.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I remember Iris. She really is a good example of how doing things out of love can be as scary as anything else. But yeah, writing female characters well also go for writing them well when they're not necessarily all good. As you say, you need the flaws too, and they have to be believable, whether they are small or greater.

[karma-kalisutah.livejournal.com]

All the girls of Avatar: The Last Airbender. Yeah, it's a "kids' show," but the gender attitudes that kids are brought up with are pretty damn important, if you ask me. There were a few blips — like Suki waiting around on the Boiling Rock for a guy she'd only ever met twice to rescue her (though, to be fair, by the end of the series she'd saved Sokka's ass at least as often as he saved hers). But the three most prominent girls on the show — Katara, Toph, and Azula — were all strong, well-rounded characters with complicated motives and varied ways of expressing their femininity. The latter two were even fan favorites — Katara, alas, got the Thousand Swords treatment when she found herself at the center of the fandom's most violent ship war. The minor female characters were pretty kick-ass too. Ursa assassinated the Fire Lord (think the Emperor of Japan circa World War II) to keep her son safe. Avatar Kyoshi founded the primarily female Kyoshi Warrior discipline and defended her city from a ruthless warlord. Hama, a royally screwed-in-the-head survivor of a Fire Nation prison camp, is widely considered the most memorable and terrifying villain of the entire series, though she only appeared in one episode. And that's just a few examples.

[bloodanna.livejournal.com]

I noticed a lot of #1 and #4 in my fandoms unfortunately, especially by my fellow slashers which breaks my heart a little. Sure, they made mistakes, but every Ex and canon love interest can't be an utter bitch! Why write them all that way and bash them, no matter what they do?
The Pirate of the Caribbean fandom is particularly bad at this, it's actually the main reason I left because yeah, "Will/Jack is OMGsohot", but Elizabeth was brilliant, in the movies I watched at least, probably even one for your list and to hear them damn her for every action and hate her just for "standing in the way" was too much.

I'd also have to add Donna Noble to that list. She was, imho, one of the best written women on TV. She was funny, smart, compassionate, and utterly brilliant, she was also slightly "broken", insecure in a way that was believable in the context of the life she'd lived and the people who'd raised her.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

every Ex and canon love interest can't be an utter bitch! Why write them all that way and bash them, no matter what they do?

Because otherwise it doesn't make the ship of choice special or twu wub enough, I guess.

... Bleh.

[wintergreen126.livejournal.com]

roslin and bailey are such awesome female characters. and cj from the west wing was already mentioned, so let's see...

this is probably cliche, but elizabeth from pride and prejudice is the first that come to mind. she's strong, witty, independent, and she's far more than just some love object.

aeryn sun in farscape was similar- a smart, tough soldier who grows as a person but doesn't fall into typical female traps. she does become more compassionate and does learn to display a little vulnerability, but never do they fast track her into support mode anything (like, as roger ebert pointed out, they do with trinity from the matrix. she has an awesome opening scene and then her purpose becomes more that of the love interest). she's still strong, but she's wiser.

i suppose this is an odd choice, but eliza doolittle from my fair lady, though i suspect some of my reasons for really liking her character and how she grew was due to the company of pickering and higgins. she's street smart, yet somewhat ignorant, and though she's transformed into a lady, she retains her unique sharpness. and i really love her line, "The difference between a lady and a flower girl is not how she behaves, but how she is treated."

and lastly, firefly's inara. she's the epitome of feminine, but she isn't a porcelain doll by any means. she's very smart, very witty, and she can hold her own in the boys club.

time for bed. i hope you have a great week :o)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I remember reading a feminist take on P&P's Elizabeth that wasn't all that kind to her, and I got a bit grumpy. She's one of those characters I love for the time she was written in - I think she helped pave the way for women to be even regarded as personalities. Some of the other literature of that age makes me want to barf, so in contrast P&P charms me all the more.

[the-wanlorn.livejournal.com]

MOVIEVERSE!PEPPER POTTS

I am so fucking in love with her it's insane. And I can't tell how much is me imagining she's awesome because I am in love, and how much is her actually being awesome in the movie.

[elvenpiratelady.livejournal.com]

Well said.

My problem with a lot of writing of women is that a lot of times it feels like the character works as a category rather than a personality. She's a Love Interest, she's a Mother, she's a Hot Villain...

This reminded me of a discussion we were having in my classics class last year - talking about the irony of the ancient Greek symbol of manliness being Andrea, a woman, and how you find more women than men used to represent ideas. For the Greeks, at least, if it's a man then it leads to questions like who is he, what's he doing, where does he come from, but for a woman those questions don't come up so often - she's essentially a blank page that you can stamp any sort of idea on and doesn't interfere with the symbolism. It's kinda depressing that we still find it in the modern world.

As for Women Appreciation Week - Galadriel, because she kicks ass in the LOTR backstory. And I second the vote for Leia.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I have a bit of grudge towards the ancient Greek for how much impact their ideas, including concerning women, have influenced history after, I have to admit. Grr grrr. I used to have philosphical discussions with my brother when I was younger, and he was a great fan of the ancient Greek and whenever we got to them, I just hit rage like whoa. Grrrrrr. Bite me, ancient Athens.

[lady-rilwen.livejournal.com]

Polgara the Sorceress, who takes nonsense from, ooh...nobody. Not even her father.

Also, Asajj Ventress, who isn't the 'villain seductress' but people still find her attractive in a very lethal way, and can utterly kick ass. She's got issues, but let's see...
Loyal but still capable of getting herself out when she decides she doesn't want to be there(and let's be fair, she was following orders from a pair who managed to fool and command pretty much everybody else as well).
Has survived. Numerous times. To the point that everybody will think she's dead, then up she pops elsewhere again.
Also, her combat is win and awesome and evil.

[rivrea.livejournal.com]

Am too tired/lazy to join the theoretical side of discussion right now, but I'd like to say that I'm in. If you start a Female Character Appreciation Week, I will take part as well -- although I don't think that I personally need it because it's Female Character Appreciation Year chez rivrea 24/7/365 and I'm actually feeling a bit guilty for ignoring most of the male characters in fandom. ;)

Has anyone mentioned Éowyn as a possible candidate yet?