Silliness and seriouness, all mixed together

[misscam]

*hits Livejournal with a trout for having to retype her whole entry*

Me and bro at discussing free will, leading to:

Bro: "...therefore, if you accept that all humans are a result of what is around them and genes, you really cannot hate them. Not even Bush and Rumsfeld."

Me: (Beat) "I can agree with the philosphical argument of that and still hate them on a purely personal level. Think of it as a hobby."

(And off we go on whether or not there is such a thing as free will.)

The whole discussion actually started with an article I read to him about creationists in the US. Apparently, there's this museum in San Diego which teaches the Bible's creation as a scientific fact and show "proof" for this (and how only bad, bad men like Hitler and Stalin believes in evolution). Which is rather mind-boggling to us, I'm afraid.

(Bro and me are still at it while watching FotR.)

Me: "I mean, is *truly free will* about making random choices? Otherwise... Oh, Boromir's about to die."

(Silence as we watch Boromir die. Poor Boromir.)

Me: "You know, in the book he has thirteen arrows in him."

Bro: "That works in a book, not a movie."

Me: "Mmmm-hmmm. Oh, here's Legolas looking like someone has kicked his puppy."

Bro: (Cracking up) "Kicked... his puppy?"

Me: "Yeah, you know, kicked-puppy acting. 'Now try to act really sad, so imagine someone kicked your puppy'." (Also cracks up)

(Both contemplate the image of Boromir as a puppy.)

Bro: "Seriously?"

Me: "Yeah! Kicked-puppy acting!"

(Both crack up again, as it is very late and both are feeling decidedly silly.)

Another thing we boggled at this weekend was Friday's live questioning of Rumsfeld before Congress. Not so much because of what Rumsfeld said, but the great speeches on "Oh, America, how great thou art, let us now count the ways" which went on and on and bloody on... I mean, is this a genuine reflection of American sentiment at this time or are they putting it on more and more since the events of September 11th? I mean, I've always sensed that there is a sentiment among some Americans that the US is the greatest thing since God himself, but at such a time, in a hearing about blatant disregard for human rights? The contrast was striking. And then there was the whole talk of "fighting the good fight" and "evil enemies" and what-not. I wonder if mum is not right when she considers that to be the underlying cause of these atrocities. If you believe yourself to be THE GOOD and your enemy to be THE BAD, it can so very easily lead to a certain way of thinking.

Take the Third Reich. The atrocities committed by Hitler's regime towards Jews and gypsies are mind-boggling in their cruelty to us. But to the German leaders, it was perfectly okay to do this, because they were THE GOOD and Jews and Gypsies were THE BAD and not true human beings.

Now, the US and the Hitler's Third Reich are of course two different things, but Bush's talk of all good and all evil worries me a great deal and having heard it echoed in the Congress was not very reassuring. I mean, is it just me that feel uncomfortable? Does this worry anyone else?

Recent polls show that over 60% of Norwegians have gotten a more negative view of the US the last two years. I wonder if that kind of talk is part of the cause. (It also showed that only 10% would vote for Bush.)

I know only this - no empire has lasted forever, so be careful how far up you put yourself, America. It's a long, long way down and the rocks are sharp.

(Meanwhile, me and bro have wandered from free will to religion.)

Bro: "So I don't get how God makes some humans such that they would never believe in him, and thus be damned in Hell forever. It's rather cruel."

Me: (Yawning, being rather tired as it is 2 a.m.) "Hmmm-mmm. The Old Testament has God being rather... stern."

Bro: (Beat) "Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch..."

Both: "... towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."

Comments

[git-the-goddess.livejournal.com]

Ah, the Monty of Python.
/Me wipes tears of joy from eyes.
You do realise that when i'm rolling around on the floor and my friends are all wondering why i'm cackling about kicked puppies next time we watch LotR movies... It'll be ALLL YOUR FAULT! :)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Feel the lure of the kicked puppy...

Boromir the Kicked Puppy!

[sparky-darky.livejournal.com]

*Bows to the powers of the Python* Is it not amazing that you can bring Python into ANY aspect of life? Seriously, try it!

I'm gonna go kick Mackenzie Crook's puppy, in order to see The Look. That sounded wrong...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Monty Python is found to enhance the quality of life in nine out of ten people with a sense of humour.

That did sound very wrong(e).

It's not just you

[greyladybast.livejournal.com]

I don't fret about being the janitor on the Death Star for no reason, you know.

But that's for another day. Dog needs walked.

Bast

P.W.--Yay, Monty Python!

Re: It's not just you

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Ah, but feeling like that could have any other causes. Like only half the population thinking torture is wrong, no matter what. That would worry me.

*does a slapping-with-trout dance to cheer up*

Re: It's not just you

[maureenlycaon.livejournal.com]

It worries me, too.

My personal theory is: we've defended and supported any torture-loving government in the Third World that claims it's "fighting Communism" for a very long time -- decades. And we've been justifying this for so long that such behavior has come to seem acceptable. It's led to a severe decline in morality -- not only of our government, but of the public.

Bah, I'm not my usual eloquent self today.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

Part of the thing about those endless patriotic speeches is that the political climate here right now is such that people feel they have to give a resounding oratory on America The Beautiful before saying anything that can possibly be interpreted as being vaguely in the realm of the outskirts of the edge of the suburbs of 'critical' or else be accused of treason by one's political opponents.

And no, the Bush League are not nuanced thinkers on the subjects of "good" and "evil." I agree with your mom's assessment.

The invitation to invade still stands. I am working on developing a taste for lutefisk. :)

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Treason? Just for saying something bad? Good grief. The best citizens of a country are those who are willing to see mistakes and do something about them, for crying out loud. Treason is declaring yourself Prime Minister, welcome foreign troops into your country and strike up a cooperations with them (see Quisling). It is not to say your country has flaws and is not the greatest thing since God.

Lutefisk? That foul substance that supposedly pass for food? Ugh. Um, I mean, that delightful national treasure of Norway. Yes.

Hmm. The International Force for Liberation of America, lead by Norway. Hmmm-hmmm. Or the International Force for De-Shrubbing America. I do like the ring of that. We could drop trouts on the White House and blast Eurosong entries until surrender.

[norwegianne.livejournal.com]

Lutefisk? That foul substance that supposedly pass for food? Ugh. Um, I mean, that delightful national treasure of Norway. Yes. Lutefisk seems to be a big Norwegian tradition, yet not very many I know has ever tasted it. Nor did the ones who have... actually like it.

Hmm. The International Force for Liberation of America, lead by Norway. Hmmm-hmmm. Or the International Force for De-Shrubbing America. I do like the ring of that. We could drop trouts on the White House and blast Eurosong entries until surrender. Count me in... Which Eurosong entry would be the best though? There's a certain political inspiration to be found in Brandenburger Tor, right? Or Mil etter Mil... Or La det Swinge... Or since it's the liberation of America we're talking about: How about San Francisco with Tor Endresen?

*realizes that she's freakish and goes to hide*

[sasja-sokolov.livejournal.com]

Bro: (Cracking up) "Kicked... his puppy?"

Those with a perverted mind could find so many different meanings in that... *snigger*

I like your brother's point about God creating people that don't believe in him and then send them to hell. Another thing I don't get is how God supposedly allowed us to have human flaws and then told us we have to be like Jesus, who is perfect. Feh. Religion.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

:P You pervert you

Not to mention just how cruel is to subject eternal torture in Hell upon humans? Who deserves an *eternity* of pain, misery and fumes?

Though the pitchforks are kinda cute.

[sasja-sokolov.livejournal.com]

That's me! :P

I could make a case for some people deserving it, like Hitler and Pol Pot... but people who were generally decent, nice human beings who just happened to worship the wrong god definitely don't.

Haha. :)

They're are some truly scary people in the US

[krazykat.livejournal.com]

Those that view the world in either good and evil and the creationists are just some of them. I was raised to think that democracy is a good thing and that this country is a good country. I suppose one of our biggest faults is that we are arrogant, as a people and a country. It's a scary and settling thought. I think we have been great and can be again, we just have to refine relations with other countries and stop imposing our will on them. Those are my not eloquent thoughts...

But wonderful image of Puppy!Boromir.

Re: They're are some truly scary people in the US

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Arrogance comes with power, I suppose. And with the fall of the Soviet, perhaps some within the US feel they are THE POWER and thus laws do not apply to the US as it does others. That could explain the *blatant* disregard of law with the Guntanamo Bay detainees.

Either way, it's a worrisome thing.

*gives Puppy!Boromir a bone*

Not to sound all American...

[hailthewarrior.livejournal.com]

Not to sound all American but, what about what they have done to our soldiers. Dragging them behind cars, mutiliating them and burning them alive. Raping the women. I know what those soldiers did was wrong, but what about what they did to us. Should we (the nation as a whole) be persecuted for what so few of us did, no. I hate being called an "American Pig" because I believe that even though some bad stuff may be happening in Iraq with our troops, I've been to the Middle East (00') and I grieved for the state of living these people had to live in, I believe we truly can help them but some people (like those troops) are perverted and in my opinion, what you do unto others, you shall have done unto you, so, I think public humilation should be in order for the wrong doers and the world should be at peace with the rest of us who are just trying to make it day to day just like the rest of the world.

*Rant over*

Hail the Python, for he is very Monty

Later,
Garrett

Re: Not to sound all American...

[jocelyncs.livejournal.com]

In all fairness (and PLEASE believe me when I say I condone NEITHER action) the horrific abuses in the prison that we're just now seeing pictures of were taking place long before the beating and burning of the American contractors that you pointed too.

Now mind you, our own media and the Bush administration has been very hush-hush about the situation in Iraq. Remember, Rumsfeld has known AT LEAST since February, and the Red Cross was alleging it as early as last October. (I remember reading about it. I think it made one line in some back-page newspaper article because nobody cared or believed it.)

My point? Just because WE didn't know what was happening to Iraqi prisoners doesn't mean the rest of IRAQ didn't know! It's hard to keep a secret from people about things taking place in their own country by a government that isn't theirs.

Like I said, I condone neither. In fact, I'm horribly disgusted and embittered by both, and I wish the perpetrators from both sides could be stood up and counted--and punished. But the fact is, long before we came into Iraq, Al Qaeda's recruiters were sneaking in there (sneaking, because Ol' Saddam didn't want 'em in his country to challenge his non-Muslim dictatorship) whispering "The Big Bad Americans are taking over the world, they will come and get us if we don't get them first!" That's the message that's been whispered all around the Middle East since LONG before 9/11, and even though we destroyed most of their training camps, their recruiting has INCREASED since we shoved the Taliban underground in Afghanistan. "See?" they said. "They've taken over Afghanistan, next it'll be your countries, your mosques, your people they'll be coming after!" And they recruited more.

And what did the Americans do? We invaded Iraq. With our guns and our bombs and our tanks, we rolled right over that country. We shocked and awed our way in and--after killing a HUGE number of people, civilians and non-civilians alike--we finally dug the Old Rat Saddam out of a hole and carted him off.

Are we safer, do you think? How do you think Al Qaeda's recruiting pitch is going to sound now, that we've invaded TWO Arab nations and taken over their governments? How do you think those pictures of what we've been doing in that prison are going to play into Osama's game plan?

I'm no pacifist, believe me. My grandparents fought in World War II. I'll be the first to agree that war and force of arms is necessary and right in some circumstances.

I just feel this wasn't one of them. And the mess we're in over there and our reputation around the world because of it is proof.

Jocelyn, wordy and ranty and soapboxy at 4 in the morning.

Re: Not to sound all American...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Couple this with the US being known for supporting some regimes who aren't exactly known for being free and kind to its citizens (like Saudi-Arabia) and the US government has sadly done some of the PR work for groups like al-Quida.

And given what the West has done to the Arab world before, I wouldn't trust us, either.

Re: Not to sound all American...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I think Jocelyn said the well, but let me add a few points.

The American government claimed to come to Iraq to liberate, to stop this sort of thing. Now we find instead Saddam's little torture prison has been employed for the same use by the Americans. That is a very, very big deal. And it'll be a bigger deal if it turns out this is systematic, as some reports do point to.

And these prisoners HAD NOT EVEN HAD A TRIAL. Some of them were later released without charge. You think it's okay to humiliate innocents as well? I certainly don't. In fact, I don't want anyone, guilty or not, to be subjected to torture. No matter what they're done, no matter their crime. How does subjecting them to abuse and torture help anything? It just makes us as bad as them. And as Joeclyn said, these things went on way before what happened in Falluja. In fact, reports about this abuse put it starting at the end of the war, before there even was an insurgency. And either way, it's a violation of the Geneva convention, of human rights and the US responsibility as an occupying force.

And really, I find the whole 'oh, but they were much worse to us!!' kind of reasoning deeply disturbing. The Palestinians and Israelis use it to heap death upon death on each other. And no matter how much bad the other side does, it will not and does not ever excuse you doing bad yourself. It might help explain why it happened, but it is no excuse.

But the irony is that part of the Iraqis do have some right to take up arms against American military. The US went in without a UN mandate and that does mean the insurgents do actually have a right to take arms against their occupying force, as set down in International law. As Norwegians did when we were invaded by Germany. There is no right to target civilians, for that'll be terrorism. A fine, fine line sometimes, it seems to me.

*shakes head* It's a whole big mess.

Re: Not to sound all American...

[talestra.livejournal.com]

Well, I live in Israel, so, as you understand, I harbor no warm feelings toward arabs, but these pictures made me sick as they did it to any normal human being. And I'm sorry if it offends someone, but it's such fucked up reasoning. What, did we return to "an eye for an eye"? Do we have to descend to their level? To pillage and rape their women? Actually, I think US already covered pillage thing. Into what we are turning?
On the other hand, how can we blame these soldiers, after all they were following example set by their leaders. Do you remember the humiliation of Saddam, when he was captured? I, and everyone else I talked to here, was totally disgusted by it.

Oh, Miss Cam, you are totally right about human stupidity being limitless. I'm really amazed how Bush managed to push all the wrongs buttons with arab world.

Re: Not to sound all American...

[(Anonymous)]

Erk. I am unsettled by your "eye for an eye" thing. The philosophy that we should be living by is a "do unto others" thing. (ah yes, I sound so intelligent) And yes, they were jerks, we were jerks, and we're all jerks, but that doesn't make any of it justified. Just because one person does a dumb cruel perverted thing doesn't give the other person the right to stuff it right back in their faces. I too hate being seen as an "American Pig" as you so eloquently put it, but that doesn't mean that we have the right to make it true.

Bush hating US residents

[(Anonymous)]

I live in the US, and almost everyone I know dispises Bush and Rumsfeld.

invasion

[(Anonymous)]

BTW, please do invade. I cannot wait untill November for a mere chance. Invade ASAP! PLEASE!!!!!!

Re: invasion

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Patience, my dear. This must be planned, you see. We don't want to bugger it up by rushing to invade without proper plans. (Unlike some...)

...I pretend I'm not American.

[agent-lupeias.livejournal.com]

Now, how to feign life in Germany.
-German accent

-Fluency in German

-German attitude, not American

-German slang

-...Permission from parents.

Darn. Not happening.
Maybe I could pretend I'm English? No, that wouldn't work.

Curses, foiled again!

I <3 Monty Python.

NI!
-Blayze, the annoying American who loves Soccer.
m=^.^=m )