Silliness and seriouness, all mixed together

[misscam]

*hits Livejournal with a trout for having to retype her whole entry*

Me and bro at discussing free will, leading to:

Bro: "...therefore, if you accept that all humans are a result of what is around them and genes, you really cannot hate them. Not even Bush and Rumsfeld."

Me: (Beat) "I can agree with the philosphical argument of that and still hate them on a purely personal level. Think of it as a hobby."

(And off we go on whether or not there is such a thing as free will.)

The whole discussion actually started with an article I read to him about creationists in the US. Apparently, there's this museum in San Diego which teaches the Bible's creation as a scientific fact and show "proof" for this (and how only bad, bad men like Hitler and Stalin believes in evolution). Which is rather mind-boggling to us, I'm afraid.

(Bro and me are still at it while watching FotR.)

Me: "I mean, is *truly free will* about making random choices? Otherwise... Oh, Boromir's about to die."

(Silence as we watch Boromir die. Poor Boromir.)

Me: "You know, in the book he has thirteen arrows in him."

Bro: "That works in a book, not a movie."

Me: "Mmmm-hmmm. Oh, here's Legolas looking like someone has kicked his puppy."

Bro: (Cracking up) "Kicked... his puppy?"

Me: "Yeah, you know, kicked-puppy acting. 'Now try to act really sad, so imagine someone kicked your puppy'." (Also cracks up)

(Both contemplate the image of Boromir as a puppy.)

Bro: "Seriously?"

Me: "Yeah! Kicked-puppy acting!"

(Both crack up again, as it is very late and both are feeling decidedly silly.)

Another thing we boggled at this weekend was Friday's live questioning of Rumsfeld before Congress. Not so much because of what Rumsfeld said, but the great speeches on "Oh, America, how great thou art, let us now count the ways" which went on and on and bloody on... I mean, is this a genuine reflection of American sentiment at this time or are they putting it on more and more since the events of September 11th? I mean, I've always sensed that there is a sentiment among some Americans that the US is the greatest thing since God himself, but at such a time, in a hearing about blatant disregard for human rights? The contrast was striking. And then there was the whole talk of "fighting the good fight" and "evil enemies" and what-not. I wonder if mum is not right when she considers that to be the underlying cause of these atrocities. If you believe yourself to be THE GOOD and your enemy to be THE BAD, it can so very easily lead to a certain way of thinking.

Take the Third Reich. The atrocities committed by Hitler's regime towards Jews and gypsies are mind-boggling in their cruelty to us. But to the German leaders, it was perfectly okay to do this, because they were THE GOOD and Jews and Gypsies were THE BAD and not true human beings.

Now, the US and the Hitler's Third Reich are of course two different things, but Bush's talk of all good and all evil worries me a great deal and having heard it echoed in the Congress was not very reassuring. I mean, is it just me that feel uncomfortable? Does this worry anyone else?

Recent polls show that over 60% of Norwegians have gotten a more negative view of the US the last two years. I wonder if that kind of talk is part of the cause. (It also showed that only 10% would vote for Bush.)

I know only this - no empire has lasted forever, so be careful how far up you put yourself, America. It's a long, long way down and the rocks are sharp.

(Meanwhile, me and bro have wandered from free will to religion.)

Bro: "So I don't get how God makes some humans such that they would never believe in him, and thus be damned in Hell forever. It's rather cruel."

Me: (Yawning, being rather tired as it is 2 a.m.) "Hmmm-mmm. The Old Testament has God being rather... stern."

Bro: (Beat) "Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch..."

Both: "... towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."

Comments

Re: Not to sound all American...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I think Jocelyn said the well, but let me add a few points.

The American government claimed to come to Iraq to liberate, to stop this sort of thing. Now we find instead Saddam's little torture prison has been employed for the same use by the Americans. That is a very, very big deal. And it'll be a bigger deal if it turns out this is systematic, as some reports do point to.

And these prisoners HAD NOT EVEN HAD A TRIAL. Some of them were later released without charge. You think it's okay to humiliate innocents as well? I certainly don't. In fact, I don't want anyone, guilty or not, to be subjected to torture. No matter what they're done, no matter their crime. How does subjecting them to abuse and torture help anything? It just makes us as bad as them. And as Joeclyn said, these things went on way before what happened in Falluja. In fact, reports about this abuse put it starting at the end of the war, before there even was an insurgency. And either way, it's a violation of the Geneva convention, of human rights and the US responsibility as an occupying force.

And really, I find the whole 'oh, but they were much worse to us!!' kind of reasoning deeply disturbing. The Palestinians and Israelis use it to heap death upon death on each other. And no matter how much bad the other side does, it will not and does not ever excuse you doing bad yourself. It might help explain why it happened, but it is no excuse.

But the irony is that part of the Iraqis do have some right to take up arms against American military. The US went in without a UN mandate and that does mean the insurgents do actually have a right to take arms against their occupying force, as set down in International law. As Norwegians did when we were invaded by Germany. There is no right to target civilians, for that'll be terrorism. A fine, fine line sometimes, it seems to me.

*shakes head* It's a whole big mess.

Re: Not to sound all American...

[hailthewarrior.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with the last line...its a whole big mess.

I also understand that we have not always done the most chivalristic things in war. *Is chivalristic even a word?*

On the issue with the whole Israeli-Palestinian thing, as I've been to Israel and half-Jewish, you know where my loyalties lie. I know the histories of both of those people and I would love peace there but it will never happen.

Later,
Garrett