O, ye merry LotR Fandom...

[misscam]

Remember the hacking allegations made over the MithrilAwards row? I'm sure some of you do.

HASA strikes hack - with a hacking challenge

A summary and rebuttal, again from HASA

Hmmm, says Cam. Decidedly hmmm. I'm not even sure what to think here myself - and I know some of these people, which complicates matters. But geez, is this row ever getting out of hand. I'd almost suggest getting peace negotiaters in there. Sometimes I think fandoms need a fandom ombudsman.

On the subject on lying or not lying and not this case in particular - is it just me who is getting a bit tired of various Net "frauds"? I'm still busy holding grudges over older ones if I weren't to get new ones too. Is it so sodding hard to be truthful on the Net or is the thought that one might get away with it like an irristitable urge to lie? I'm not talking little white lies here, I'm talking the huge black-as-Ungoliant lies. Is it all about attention and pity and things you can't buy for money? Or is it some deeper human urge at play here and if so, could any just fall prey to it? Troubling thought.

I went out and read some stuff on it (unsurprising, given my desire-for-knowledge nature) and I found this summary in an article about compulsive lying:

There are a number of reasons that people lie. The first is fear. This is the most common reason that people may lie, and they are taking shelter from a perceived punishment. It may be because they know they have done something wrong a single time, in which case it is not compulsive lying. But if they are always in fear of being punished, it may become a habit, which is a second reason for lying. In this case, it may become compulsive lying, which is lying by reflex. Even when confronted by the truth, they insist the lie is the truth in this case. A third case is learning to lie through modeling. When a people see others lie, especially when they get away with it, they may become more prone to lying. Finally, people lie because they feel if they tell the truth they won't get what they want.

Now the latter is I guess why most people lie on the Net. Which I guess makes the next obvious question what they want. Pity? Attention? Revenge? Because the Net is a world of words, is lying thus the way to mould it to one's liking? If you want something so very badly, does lying suddenly seem defendable?

This is not true only of the Net, of course. How many world leaders have lied over the years to get what they want? Too many to count, I'm sure.

Honesty is such a frail word in the company of human determination, isn't it?

Oh, and very nice and helpful link listing various resources for Forensic Psychology

ETA: Paid account! Whee! Now if I could only figure out how to create my own style...

Comments

[shandydann]

I'm not sure what to think myself about the whole hacking lj mithril awards thing.

You can just tell that the hackles are up on both sides, they definatley need a mediator of some sort. I dont see the point of lying on the net, even though you arent physically interacting with people over the net, you are still dealing with people. If I have something that I dont want people to know I just wont post it. If I do something wrong and offend, I appologise for it. Just because the web is virtual doesnt give people the right to decieve. I dont know. Perhaps its because I see little difference between the world off the net and on. At times it reminds me of highschool.

On another note, paid accounts are so cool, I think I need to learn some HTML stuff to do my own style, or I could buy my brother a paid account and get him to do it for me. Thats an idea.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

One would have to have a great deal of guts to attempt to mediate between the many parties in that row, me thinks.

I suppose consequences of lying can be less on the Net, thus is feels 'safer' in some ways to lie. You don't have as much insight into people's lives as you would if you knew them in real life. But of course, what often leads to discovery anyway is that once lying, the liar lies just one time too many and it all comes down like a house of cards.

Maybe I should get a slave to done a style for me too... *hmms*

[shandydann]

You are right about the consquences in terms of the net. It just seems pointless to lie, especially about yourself and other people. But I can understand why people would want to build them selves up. But I cant understand lying to damage other people. I'm just niaeve I guess.

Getting a slave to do it is the best way, plus the way you can get them to do it is allow them to include it in their electronic portfolio.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I don't think the people lying always realise they're hurting other people. Humans are very, very good at being egocentrical. It's built into our genes, after all. Not that that's any excuse.

*goes out to hunt slave*

[shandydann]

Good hunting *lends huge net*

[shandydann]

just noticed the icon. *giggles and loves at the same time*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

That's an old one - just haven't had the space to show it off in a long time. But now - merry icon showing off!

[shandydann]

Eeeeee! Pika is so good!

[misscam.livejournal.com]

That she certainly is.

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

My my... I don't know much about HASA and the Mithrils, but I'm kind of glad that's the case now...

I can see all the reasons listed as being reasons why people lie, but this sort of reminds me of an article I read on MSN about how children these days are getting more and more spoiled because parents of the last generation grew up to think that they should make their children happy or not ever be harsh with them or that loving their children means making them happy and giving them what they want ALL the time. Problem is, that gives the child an improper sense of entitlement that causes problems in later life -- they don't hear "No, you can't have this toy right now" or "No, don't do that, it's wrong!" (or if not that, then commericals and other kids telling them, "You need to be allowed to have this and have it now!") and later they think, "I want this, therefore I deserve to have it, and I can do whatever I want to get it. It's the fault of the people not giving it to me if I do something they don't like to get it."

I guess I could tie the "spoiled brat" thing in with the latter reason -- "I want that attention, I deserve it but won't get it if I tell the truth, so I can lie about it and have what's rightfully mine. Everyone else just has to deal."

Rather depressing...

Yay! Happy paid accountness! Layout creating and tweaking is fun, and so are more icons. ^_^ *welcomes back the evil smiley muse*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Spoiled brats need a good kick in the bum, if you ask me. If you look at how little people out ther ein the rest of the world has, the brats are not bloody entitled to anything. They've already gotten more than they deserve (in a sense, so have we all here in the Western world). *mutters darkly*

Evil Grinning Smiley is indeed back. Whee?

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

They do. A little whining as stress relief when things just don't seem to be going your way doesn't bother me, but when it gets to the point where you start blaming others for your trivial "misfortunes" (ie not getting what you want, when you want it -- especially when it's your own stupid fault), it gets infuriating. It has some nasty consequences, too. "I didn't get into this Ivy League university because black people took my spot! Why should I care about black people now? (And forget that I had an SAT score that a lesser unversity wouldn't even look at!" (That would be a real example a friend of mine gave me.)

Maybe they should try living in a place where they have no choice but to live in a cardboard box and eat out of the garbage. If they're so entitled to have more than that, why don't they help the people who *do* live like that? Or else, what makes *them* more important than these people? *grumbles*

(Now I really ought to find a good charity to support sometime. ^_^;)

Whee :D

[misscam.livejournal.com]

*shudder* Let's face it - life owes you nothing. It's brought you into this world and that be that. Other people might owe you something if you get screwed over, but don't act like you're entitled to all great things just beacuse. *smacks brats*

I support Amnesty International and the Red Cross as a supporting member, but there is an ocean of various charities out there. Just make sure you check out what you're supporting so you know your money will go to something you want it to.

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Yeah. And if you don't like the fact that you've been brought into a world that owes you nothing, well, I'm one of those who supports a person's right to leave it. Deal or don't, but no whining because you can't be catered to.

My mom likes Amnesty International, so that's been on my mind for a while. And I definitely know not to go with charities I don't know enough about. I remember when people were taking advantage of 9/11 -- they knew others really wanted to donate to help victims of the attacks and set up fake charities. I'm still seething over that one. Plus in Ireland I was warned to watch out because the IRA is very active and makes a lot of money from Americans in America, from charities and otherwise, as I recall. *counts them among brats and smacks them as well*

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Amnesty is good, if you care about Humans Rights. There's also Human Rights Watch, of course. I tend to prefer to support the big ones, for at least I know that if they were up to no good, the media would be right on their tail.

The IRA is less active these days, so I guess the danger of accidentally donating money to them is less. It is very unfortunate when charity goes into bed with terrorism - got some of the same problem in Gaza with Hamas-run charities. Unfortunate, to say the least.

[maureenlycaon.livejournal.com]

There's been a lot of mainstream press in the past two decades, blaming things on the alleged "overly permissive parenting styles" supposedly spawned by the "overly permissive Sixties". And yet, we're still seeing huge numbers of cases of child abuse and child neglect, to the point where child-welfare agencies are staggering under the strain. The perception just doesn't jibe with the reality.

The problem is not simply that we spoil kids. I think it's a massive breakdown in Americans' ability to raise children, period. (I can't speak for other countries, because I don't know what's going on with children outside this one.) It looks to me like the majority of people who choose to have children nowadays are just plain incompetent.

I have a lot of ideas as to why this is, but I might go off into a rant . . .

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Yeah, good point -- that is true, and I've been reading more of one side and not enough of the other these past two weeks and missed that point. Two seeming opposites like that can happen at the same time. And no problem is "simply" anything, I think.

I don't know if it's proper for me to invite you to let loose in someone else's LJ, but if you do want to rant on this somewhere, I'd be interested in reading.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Oh, feel free to debate here, if you so desire. It's an interesting topic.

[maureenlycaon.livejournal.com]

Okay, since Cam said I could. :-)

Part of the reason ties into the fact that the very social fabric of America is falling apart.

You may recall the gruesome studies of overcrowding in laboratory rats, in which the rats' entire behavior became deranged. The researchers dubbed this a "behavioral sink".

It's led to uneasy speculation that maybe, under the right set of circumstances, human behavior might also break down in a "behavioral sink". There has even been speculation whether this might not already be happening in some places.

In any case, any way you slice it, in the U.S. these days something in the mass psychology has gone very, very wrong.

The second reason, and IMHO the biggest: I hate to say anything bad at all about birth control, even by implication. But the most intelligent, self-controlled, rational people are taking a long look at their life circumstances, or a long look at the situation here, and deciding not to have kids. The people who are having kids now tend to be the very people who shouldn't be encouraged to breed: the overly religious who still think every woman should have litters of babies even though we're not an agricultural society any more, the unthinking people who believe birth control is somehow "wrong" or "unnatural" (so is civilization, dammit!), the teenage girls seduced by older men, the girls and women on welfare who have no ambitions to be anything but welfare moms, the people who want smaller, weaker humans around the house whom they can dominate, the witless idiots who just think it's fun to have babies because they see them in the media and want one, and then find they have no goddamn idea how to keep their kids under control, the girls who think a baby will persuade their boyfriend to marry them, the people who have great difficulty relating to other people but who therefore have kids in an attempt to try to alleviate their loneliness, the subhumans who just don't give a shit and don't bother about birth control and then can't be bothered to raise the kids . . . dammit, see, I'm ranting. But you get the picture. The very people who should breed are being discouraged from doing so, and the very people who shouldn't are allowed (sometimes even actively encouraged) to do so.

Add to that economic circumstances -- most Americans' economic situation is headed steadily downwards, and inevitably that affects how they treat their kids. Add to that the fact that we still continue to insist women should stay at home even though that's long since ceased to be realistic for the middle class, so we refuse to put enough money into day care just like we refuse to use birth control, therefore day care is overcrowded and filled with underpaid, overburdened workers who don't always speak much English, so the kids are neglected, which in turn gets blamed on the evoool working mothers, which in turn . . . can we say "vicious spiral", kiddies?

[maureenlycaon.livejournal.com]

Erf, should really have finished that thought before hitting "Post Comment" -- it's late.

Add all these factors together, as I think is really what's happening, and you get the complete collapse of childrearing that you see in the U.S. today. So it's small wonder we have so many abused and neglected children, and also small wonder that the other kids are so often wildly neurotic and fucked-up, or badly-reared, spoiled, embittered brats who make everyone around them miserable.

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Those are interesting points -- I don't really have much to add to that...

I have heard that thing about "educated" (I'll just call them that and hope I don't get attacked by rabid wombats, but I'll acknowledge that some of the idiots could have educations at a Masters Degree level and some of the intelligent people might not have made it to college) women having fewer children while the "uneducated" have more, and I recall actually worrying about that. And considering the massive population increases the US is facing within the next century (I heard an estimate of something like over a billion by the time I'm 60 (that would be in about 40 years or so), with "minorities" being the ones doing a great deal of the populating, I can see how this could really be a huge problem. If it's mostly the negligent idiots (besides the minorities) populating the country in the future, I'd worry about the way the growing "uneducated" classes will interact with the growing number of "minorities" they could easily perceive as stealing their jobs and taking up their space.

...did that paragraph have anything to do with the topic? It's 1:30am here. ^_^;

I (in my attempts to come up with something) was vaguely wondering if people finding new levels of laziness and lacking of attention spans with the "advancement" of technology and speed might have had anything to do with it (everyone wants to accomplish things quickly, painlessly, and with as little effort as possible these days, it seems) and that somehow found its way into the attitudes people take towards child-rearing. (How parents just plop kids down in front of the TV to use it as a babysitter being the standard cry of people wanting their parents to be more involved with their kids' lives drifts into mind, however relevant.) I didn't figure out how to substantiate such a suggestion to my satisfaction though, and then there was the question of whether people who neglected their children had all this technology themselves (though I suppose they could still be affected by it if it was the case that they didn't have any technology besides electricity or something, through work or interaction with other members of society or something).

Profuse apologies for the lack of coherency I suspect is all over the place. O_o

[norwegianne.livejournal.com]

There are bundles of reasons why people lie on the net. Some might be valid, very few, and a lot of them are not.

OOOh... lots of iconspace?

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I can understand lying to spare someone's feelings or perhaps protect your own privacy, but that's usually about where I draw the line.

Indded lots of icon space. So now I've put up the ones I nicked from you :P (With credit, of course.)

[norwegianne.livejournal.com]

Those two were the acceptable ones, yeah.

Nice... ;) It makes me want to iconize some more... I need to go through my icons and toss out the ones I don't want more...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

The more icons, the merrier.

[nirix5.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting the forensic psychology link. I've only had a chance to skim the site quickly, as I have to be in French class in ten minutes, but I'll look over it later. Whee for forensic stuff!!! *dances*

[maureenlycaon.livejournal.com]

I agree with the analysis that it's easier to get away with lying on the Net. Sociopaths, narcissists and people with histrionic personality disorder existed before the Net became popular, but never before could their pathologies play out on such a grand scale.

I'd like to also point out that sociopaths have a tendency to brag and to exaggerate. (This is why psychopaths like Henry Lee Lucas, once arrested, will claim murders they didn't even commit.) So, sociopaths can lie even when they don't need to do it to manipulate people.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I suppose they've gotten so used to it it's rather like a reflex to any given situation no matter what.

And yeah, the Internet is like the new grand scene of attention-whores, Sociopaths, narcissists and whoever else might feel inclined to play. Makes it tricky for the rest not to be screwed over at some point.

[elvea-aure.livejournal.com]

Oh, when will that nonsense end?!

[is glad she is not involved with either HASA or Mithril Awards]

[misscam.livejournal.com]

To quote Red Dwarf -

and on that day, Satan will be skating to work.

[elvea-aure.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately all too true...

[elenculda.livejournal.com]

Congratulations on getting a paid account. They're very enjoyable if you understand the benefits. (Interested in a mood icon set?)

Anyway...I just read the entire Mithril Awards post. Amazing. I think I'd heard of the scandal briefly before when it was in an earlier stage, but never investigated.

Why do people lie? The list of reasons go on and on. It's an inevitably human trait; it smacks of intelligence, in fact. I think it's a better idea to ask why not be truthful. If you are telling a lie, you are avoiding telling the truth, and once you understand the reasons for not wanting to tell the truth, it leads back more easily into why you are telling the lie.

I think, and the other commenters on this post may have already said something similar, that it is infinitely easier to lie on the Net than on a personal scale. The Internet gives to its users a sense of security, a sense of anonymity. The idea of having an 'online alias' gives you the opportunity to begin with a clean slate -- the only way to develop a personality or reputation online is by propagating it yourself. You also have the pleasure of feeling a sense of detachment from the online community that you associate with. There is less of a 'conscience' issue because you cannot ever be quite sure that the people you are affecting truly exist. They are, after all, just words formed from pixels on your computer monitor.

So: whatever you say or do determines people's opinion of you. The way you conduct yourself over the Web establishes what sort of person you are; what you reveal about 'Real Life' defines you as well. What you keep hidden will never hurt you, what you reveal will determine your personality -- so, what to reveal and what to hide? And...what to fabricate entirely?

Yes indeed...why use this privilege to lie? Well, when you delve deep down into it, it all boils down to power. Power over others; power over yourself. By lying you have the opportunity to live in a world entirely of your own creation. This provides for you security. The Internet, wide as it is, gives you the power to create your own little bubble, where you can live on serenely, confident that your phantasy will never burst.

A lot of people like that.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

What kind of mood icon set?

That's an interesting way to view it. Sometimes what truths you don't tell say as much as what lies you do speak, me thinks. But I do think people sometimes lie not necessarily because the truth is bad - just perhaps dull. Lies, as you say, are a fantasy, but seeking fantasies doesn't always mean your life is hideous anymore than lying always makes the truth something you're afraid or ashamed of.

[elenculda.livejournal.com]

I think that's true, too. I wasn't saying that a person's life necessarily has to be terrible for them to want to make up lies, just that there is something lacking that they want to fill with a lie, or a set of lies. The only reason that anyone lies is because they are dissatisfied with something. Even if it doesn't seem like they are, outwardly.

By mood icon sets I mean the little pictures that represent your mood. You can make your own set! If you go to my LiveJournal (http://www.livejournal.com/users/elenculda) you can see that instead of the little cartoon things that LJ gives you, I put in my own mood pictures. You can get really creative with them...

You can also waste hours looking for the perfect pictures. But I digress. If you want to know how to set it up, I can help you.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Me thinks that if we all look for it, we do find reasons to be dissatisfied with something or feel something lacking. Life isn't perfection. You'll never have all you want, no matter how much you lie.

Sure, I'd love to learn.

[elenculda.livejournal.com]

Yes, and lying is just one way to relieve oneself of the dissatisfaction. I'm not saying that lying solves the problem, either. Even if you feel content to live in a happy world of lies, somewhere in the darkest corners of your mind, something within you is whispering, this isn't true, this isn't real and you know it.

Here's (http://www.livejournal.com/support/faqbrowse.bml?faqid=64) the link for starting your own custom mood theme. Please do ask me if you have any questions about anything, because the description of how to assign your set of icons is really vague and I messed up the coding the first time I did it. And it took me hours to redo my work.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Oh joy. *eyes instructions with great suspicion* I can sense I will screw it up already. But that's the best way to learn - if I don't kill myself as I slam my head into the desk repeatedly, that is.

[elenculda.livejournal.com]

No, that just kills off brain cells. Which you will invitably need to understand the instructions.

LiveJournal is such a catch-22.

[visp.livejournal.com]

Cam, you are a good, honest person. The majority of humans are lying decietful bastards and bitches when we can get away with it. The Internet provides the perfect opportunity to get away with it. Add the fact that apart from being liars, we humans are generally bad on the whole when we have anonymity and a lack of consequences to support said vicious, whiny, spoiled, self-entitled, immature and selfish impulses. This is well known.

Honesty is a concept. Like trust, it all depends on circumstance; keep in mind that all people could be lying unless you have very strong proof that either they wouldn't lie to you about that (every case is different) or better, that said fact is true.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I don't think I'm any any more good or bad than the average person, really. I have lied in my life, so I can hardly claim to be the paragon of honesty here. But I try to live my life according to the values I hold high and one happens to be the honour of my word. You might get away from the consequences from others when lying on the Net, but you cannot hide from yourself. So I believe there is no real getting away with lying. There are consequences either way.

And in the end you cannot walk through life distrusting everyone's word, nor can you trust everyone either. Like all things, balance is the key.

[visp.livejournal.com]

You see, that's the thing, the concept of trust. the very word is too vague and general. For example, I "trust" my brother with my life, but not with the last cookie. I "trust" he will tell me the truth, unless he's plotting against me the sneaky bastard. The way I see it, all there is is knowing what someone will or will not do in a given circumstance, and why. If you don't know, then all options must be considered - including the less than favorable ones.

When I hear something, I consider all options: they're deluded, insane, making it up, being honest, etc. but I rarely make a judgement unless I have to. For instance, I hang out in a forum where some people say that they're vampires, and I have yet to see proof that vampires exist, much less that these people are what they say they are, but I don't actually make the call whether they're lying or not because I'm not there for the sterling information, I'm there for the company. You could be a 40-year-old lumberjack with a great beard, but I still like reading your journal and stories, and so until it reaches the point where I'm intending to visit you, lend you money, follow your advice on the stock market or believe you when you say the end of the world is near and I must hide in a cave, your honesty to me is (while believed in and admired) somewhat irrelavant.

I find that unless I am in a situation where it is necessary, or at least important that a person be telling me the truth, I don't bother too much, because it's just not worth the hassle. Especially on the internet, I treat it like a film that might be fiction, loosely based on a true story or a word-for-word retelling.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

That feels like a somewhat bleak attitude to it all. But I suppose it saves later grief.

[visp.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say "bleak", cold, maybe.

[da-think.livejournal.com]

Hey cam:

Think someone in my fandoms would post a hacking challange? Damn I keep missing out :D

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't get my hopes up. I don't suppose you think the one issued here is worth a shot?

[mademoisellenon.livejournal.com]

Yay for the new icons and a paid account. HipHip!

The whole MA b.s....so much to say and so little space. It;s becoming stranger with each minute, with more allegations, accusations, what have you. I don't want to start pointing any fingers but as Alice would say "curiouser and curiouser". I said from the beginning that this would end remarkably badly and hopefully it won't be those people that we know directly/indirectly who are going to suffer.

As for lying, well...I was in a position once where I lied. It was a pretty big lie. In fact, that was the "epiphany" *smirk* I needed to never lie again (white lies excluded, please). Point being, I did that because I needed attention; wanted it, desired it, all in that vein. That totally proves your article right. However, I was also pretty young when I did that, perhaps around 11, 12. When adults make mistakes such as those (again not accusing anyone) it's pathetic and useless. I *know* that the truth is going to come up sooner or later. I for one am *really* intrigued right now...

[misscam.livejournal.com]

If the MA mess gets too far, it might blow up the faces of more people than are directly involved in it. I have no idea where it's going, but I certainly don't like the trend. There's "owles in the moss" as we'd say in Norway.

Well, at the age where you still is a kid, I don't expect the same kind of good judgement as in an adult. At that age one should know lying is wrong, but perhaps has not yet learned why. But when you start getting into the teenage years, new standards do apply, even if perhaps not as strict as in the case of an adult. Though if you want to be treated like an adult, you have to accept responsibility like an adult. Simple as that.